The main issue I take with this statement is that when comparing these two it really comes down to CM florges vs specs sylveon, considering they both run fine cleric sets. With your nidos example the utility they brought to teams was deemed to be equal, however cm florges is nowhere near as strong as specs sylveon. I mean sure florges is a wincon but it isn't great in this meta especially when you realize every team is currently running 1-2 fairy checks because of how threatening sylveon is. Honestly regardless of what you think sylveon should be ranked I don't think anyone could make the case that sylveon and florges are at all equals in this meta, either drop florges or raise sylveon imo.
Arguing that CM Florges isn't effective as a wincon is essentially saying the same thing regarding Suicune, considering most teams have 1-2 Water-type checks too. Or that CM Reuniclus isn't a great wincon either because Dark-types are relatively common. The goal with these wincons is to clean house once those checks are gone. Florges just has the added benefit of being a cleric at the same time. Expecting any of them to be effective when said 1-2 checks are still active is ridiculous. To say that CM Florges bad in this meta is silly. Quit letting Omfuga teach you how to play mons smh. It's not really about Florges' strength if I'm honest, since an uninvested Florges requires 3 boosts to be stronger than Specs Sylveon (granted 3 boosts aren't easy to acquire but it is very possible in a late-game scenario). The two play completely differently, but equally well. The case I brought up in regards to Nidoking vs Nidoqueen wasn't that the utility they brought was equal, but that they performed as well as the other one. They were, in a sense, equals in terms of viability.
Having a narrow viewpoint, in this case focusing on two very similar Pokemon and how they compare against one and other, as opposed to comparing Florges and Slyveon against the metagame (thus establishing and ranking their viability in said metagame) is silly. Yes, Sylveon has the more dynamic offensive set, yes they're both fine clerics, yes Florges is the better wincon. They have obvious differences and when viewed separately Sylveon will appear the better option nine times out of ten. Against the entire metagame however, both are equally viable and their usage is simply based around what you need them to do. - it's rather silly of me to say one is better than the other. They play differently, occupy different roles. Saying we must raise / drop one simply because the other exists is absurd.
Consider it this way: Cresselia and Heracross both occupy A-rank. One is a potent wallbreaker and the other is a more defensive Pokemon that can function as a wincon. Yes one may have an offensive edge over the other despite the hostilities both face in today's metagame, but they're both equally viable. When I compare these two the way we compare Florges and Slyveon - which only happens because they share modestly similar stats and have identical typing.
Mazz, I would really appreciate if you quoted me correctly instead of simply misstating my point. I never even mentioned offensive Sylveon, I was refering to the Wish Pass/Cleric set, which I thought I made very clear...
Sure, any decent offensive Sylveon will outspeed M-Ampharos regardless. However, this was not my point. My point with M-Ampharos regarding Sylveon was that the replacement of Florges as Wish Passer/Cleric helps it performing the role of a slow but powerful pivot more reliably. It is NOT a sweeper and I never claimed it would be.
How is this not an improvement for Mega Ampharos? When Florges was around as the (only) Fairy type Wish Passer/Cleric, M-Ampharos couldn't even have dreamed of a 2HKO, since Florges outspeeds and is more specially bulky. With Sylveon around however, you will be able to deal a good chunk of damage with Thunderbolt on the switch-in and Volt Switch right out of there on the following turn, since you outspeed the defensive variant. Don't see Leftovers on Sylveon? Don't stay in to Volt Switch. It's that easy.
Like I said before, Mega Ampharos is not self-sufficient, it needs proper team support to function. M-Ampharos is a team player, it should be used on Bulky Offense and Balance builds, that can truly appreciate its ability to pressure opposing bulky cores, and its decent defensive capability that can relieve some pressure from team members versus offensive cores. Yes, M-Ampharos doesn't dislike a partner to form a VoltTurn core with, but it is not solely restricted to this kind of build.
Let me get this straight: You want Mega-Ampharos to drop because a single core that is common on offense right now makes it "harder" to predict with it? I can't get behind this. You are simply neglecting the fact that Mega Ampharos' presence doesn't only force its user to predict, but also the opponent. Go ahead, send in your CB Krookodile on Mega Ampharos and watch it take 80% from Dragon Pulse or get straight up OHKO'd by Focus Blast. I don't think an offensive Sylveon likes taking repeated damage from Thunderbolt and being Volt Switch'ed on, either. Hold up, you managed to predict correctly around Mega Ampharos? Congratulations! You didn't? Oh well, then you probably just lost one of your wallbreakers or a good amount of momentum. This "mental chess game" can bite you in the back just as much as your opponent; the Sylveon + Krookodile user does not have the advantage in this scenario. Like I stated above, Mega Ampharos doesn't exactly shine versus offense, because you are more pressured to predict correctly with it, but versus bulkier builds it has a lot more room to work with and you can even afford to make a wrong prediction at times.
Now hear me out, I don't want to promote Mega-Ampharos to A rank or anything, I know about its flaws and how the metagame is not particulary friendly to it right now. But that is exactly why it is sitting in B and not higher up. I don't see how M-Ampharos is a "shoddy" choice for your mega slot and has to drop when it fills a unique niche, that is somewhat underrated in the current metagame and hasn't changed much from previous states of the metagame in terms of viability.
Keep M-Ampharos in B.
I quoted you this time even though I don't particularly like clicking the quote button. I don't think I've misstated your point, rather you didn't expect opposition to it since it was seemingly swept under the rug. All I'm doing is taking a "big picture" approach than simply seeing how Mega Ampharos fares against a single Pokemon.
First off, I'm rather certain that the cleric set is nothing shy of middling on Sylveon, and that typically offensive sets should be favoured. Florges's access to Synthesis makes it better suited for a defensive role, as the first-turn recovery aids its staying power. However, in the event that one finds themselves with a cleric Sylveon matched against Mega Ampharos, they will still win. Slyveon's cleric set runs Protect. Even if you get a max roll off on Sylveon with Thunderbolt (and therefore end up taking a Hyper Voice to the neck), it can still stall you out for a turn, take additional Leftovers recovery, and then it's outside of your KO range (barring status, previous damage, or a critical hit). In this case, your best play is to Volt-Switch out. Ampharos cannot reliably stay in on Slyveon. How that translates into beating Sylveon beats me. If anything, it cements that Sylveon is no more a boon to Mega Ampharos' usage than Florges was. In fact with Sylveon being stronger, its more of a burden than anything.
If you don't see Leftovers on Sylveon, you're getting outsped. Unless your opponent suffered an aneurysm while building their team and opted for a max HP / max SpA spread. In that case, you're either forced out or sacrificing Mega Ampharos. I still don't see how Mamphy comes out on top here.
Your original post on Mega Ampharos, while not specifically stating it, hints that even with Sylveon's presence the metagame hasn't hindered Mega Ampharos enough to deny dropping it. The common core of Sylveon and Krookodile was merely an example of a case where the exact opposite is true (while also making your statement of simply Volt Switching out of Sylveon less viable). If you want to deconstruct my argument to simply "Player A can outpredict Player B", then you missed the point completely. Nothing about today's metagame has changed for the betterment of Mega Ampharos - things have only gotten worse for it with the addition of Sylveon (and Celebi if I'm nickel-and-diming here). Fun fact, but Hydreigon still exists. Mamoswine, Salamence, Celebi, there's too many prevalent Pokemon standing in Mega Ampharos' way to be good. You have a moot point.
Like I stated above, Mega Ampharos doesn't exactly shine versus offense, because you are more pressured to predict correctly with it, but versus bulkier builds it has a lot more room to work with and you can even afford to make a wrong prediction at times.
This part made me chuckle simply because the current state of the metagame has favoured offence as opposed to balance. Banning Alakazam was supposed to help this, and it's definitely a step in the right direction, but offence is still a very prominent playstyle in Underused. If you mean to tell me that the Pokemon you believe shouldn't drop is also dead weight versus offensive teams, then what are you trying to defend? If it's garbage against the most common playstyle, then what's the point?
I don't see how M-Ampharos is a "shoddy" choice for your mega slot and has to drop when it fills a unique niche, that is somewhat underrated in the current metagame and hasn't changed much from previous states of the metagame in terms of viability.
Mega Camerupt also had a specific niche, and it was recently unranked from the VR, and with good reason. If you consider Mega Ampharos in a vacuum, then sure it's a neat Pokemon. Has some flaws, but it's a pivot with some bulk. Once compared against the metagame however, that appeal wears off and you're left wanting. Mega Ampharos has the same flaw that Mega Camerupt did, and it does in fact
waste your mega slot. Every mega evolution ranked above it (deservedly so) outperforms what Mega Ampharos brings to the table, with the added benefit of not struggling versus offence.
Heliolisk, Porygon-Z, Tyrantrum, and Dragalge all function quite well on varying forms of offence. Porygon2 is still one of the best defensive Pokemon in the metagame (just too many key things set up on it). For the most part, these five Pokemon handle the current state of the metagame well enough to justify staying in B-rank. Mega Ampharos does not.
EDIT: also
Lord of Bays Deoxys-D was unparalleled in terms of what it's capable of. In every metagame it's touched (maybe outside of ORAS Ubers). Yes, it's a one-trick pony but again, unparalleled at that specific trick. S-Rank would be justified in its case since no other Pokemon fills that role as prominently. Such is not the case with Mamoswine. It's great offensively, but so are a lot of things in UU.