BH Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

This team is great. Never used it, but I faced it on the ladder a few times and Scarf Chansey completely dunked me in the rounds you won. Took me three tries to figure out that its actually scarf. As someone that got beaten by it quite a bit, definately would recommend (if being beaten by it lets me recommend it).

On another note, I'm stealing this concept from Gen 8 BH:

:sm/gengar-mega:

Gengar-Mega @ Flame Orb
Modest Nature
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 76 SpD / 252 Spe
- Tail Glow
- Moongeist Beam
- Secret Sword / Sludge Bomb
- Spore / Lovely Kiss / Moonblast / Taunt / King's Shield / Sludge Bomb

Quick Feet Mega Gengar. The idea is that you force a switch (on NDM or something), Tail Glow up, and start sweeping. As soon as they reveal their Hazer (and they will do so, very quickly), Spore them, TG again, and continue on your path of destruction. Lovely Kiss can be run in case they're Safety Goggles or something but you'd usually want Spore. A huge perk of running this is that its a sweeper that is a self-improof. With Quick Feet, you are faster than Impostor and can OHKO them with Moongeist Beam. 76 SpD EVs ensures that you will OHKO Eviolite Impostor, but you can run 216 if you want to OHKO Impostor after rocks or a layer of spikes. However, you will have to risk the speed tie on Choice Scarf Impostors or switch out, but since they will almost certainly Moongeist Beam you can just run to a Normal-type or something.

As for other options for this set (and it has tons), Moonblast hits Yveltal and bulky Dragon-types (most notably Giratina). Taunt shuts down Hazers through Safety Goggles and also stop healing. King's Shield bypasses atespeeders provided that Mega Gengar has enough HP remaining. Finally, Sludge Bomb is a powerful secondary STAB option that doesn't really hit much besides Xerneas and Mega Audino, but its powerful nontheless.

Now, why would you use this over the standard MGar sets?
  • Normalize is something else entirely, so I won't go over it.
  • All non-moldy sets (other than Normalize) either lose to Shedinja or Impostor (unless you run both Judgment and a moldmove, which is kinda stupid).
  • Moldy Shell Smash (and Quiver Dance) does not pack enough power to KO certain targets, most notably Registeel, Regigigas, and Dialga.
  • Moldy Tail Glow is outsped and revenge killed by Mega Mewtwo Y, which is really important since Mega Mewtwo Y is one of the largest threats in the meta.
  • This set is immune to status, which shields it from Prankster Glarers and whatnot.
  • It does not rely on Spooky Plate, which makes it less weak to Knock Off. In fact, Mega Gengar only needs its item for one turn, because as soon as its burned it don't need the Flame Orb anymore.
This set has its own disadvantages. For one, its bulk will be severely compromised, as between the burn and the forced drop on Special Defense, you will be a lot less capable of taking hits than if you were running other sets. But then, who cares about bulk when you're cleanly sweeping the opposing team? Also, it can't beat Unaware Pokemon that does not die to Moongeist Beam, most notably Yveltal and Arceus. However, sleep can be used to muscle past them.

:gengar-mega::audino-mega::mewtwo-mega-y::groudon-primal::giratina::registeel:
Here's a team built around this Mega Gengar set. Mewtwo is for breaking, and targets mons that Gengar has trouble with, like Yveltal and Primal Kyogre. After the opposing team is sufficiently weakened Gengar comes in and sweep, and honestly not much can stop it from doing so. Audino improofs Mewtwo, Gengar self-improofs, Pdon improofs Audino but lets it set rocks, Gira improofs Pdon (and Audino, but it can't do anything back), and Audino improofs Gira and Registeel. Blue Flare on Mewtwo is mostly filler and I'll probably change it to Focus Blast or something. The five orbs kinda just happened and is mostly an accident.

EDIT: I forgot to say this but this team is far from perfect and can use lots of improvements, therefore to anyone reading this I'm using this as an excuse to get some comments to improve my team. Any constructive advice will be appreciated!
built this team around quick feet mgar

:eevee: :groudon-primal: :chansey::mewtwo-mega-y: :yveltal: :gengar-mega:
https://pokepast.es/624260d2b6cc0432
idea behind this team is pretty simple. eevee subs and boosts up, taunts any phazers prior to the boost, then passes to any teammate here. might go spin over tglow on yveltal tho. this is the most important calc for the team:
+3 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. +1(simulates eviolite) 252 HP / 252 SpD Gengar-Mega(250 HP): 542-642 (76.9 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; make sure to sleep before moongeisting
sacred fire pdon is there so it isnt forced to lower its defensive utility with v-create, kind of a modified fvm alright thats it bye
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
pog rat




the rat is pogging

:ss/celesteela:

triage steela is like the best pokemon in the game. heres the "definitive" set:

Celesteela @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm / Bold / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Oblivion Wing
- any 2 of the following:
toxic, magma storm, spikes, leech seed, earth power, ice beam, thunder, strength sap

other (potentially viable) stuff i haven't used: flame plate judgment, nuzzle, other hazards, substitute, taunt, dragon tail, anchor shot, spectral thief, defog, worry seed, core enforcer, scarf trick, giga drain

this mon really just goes all the way up. assuming you can fit celesteela on your team (pretty likely). assuming you can avoid getting owned by fire move mmy, imposter, and heavy offenses, you have this truly amazing sweeper that does whatever your team needs with the power of its last 2 moveslots. helmet can prick opposing pokemon for daring to strike you, and leech seed takes this idea even further by laughing at opponents who think they can stand in celesteela's presence while owning shed and potentially imposter although its kind of a stalemate if they seed you as well.

obviously you don't immediately win and most opposing teams will have some way to react to celesteela, but most of the time they simply cannot kill it. really only a matter of time before something cracks and it instantly owns everything.

typically this set is meant for my team style and aggressive balances but you can probably use it on way more passive stuff. i also have this stall where you have discharge/ice beam steela with easy bake oven to imposter proof lol

:ss/gengar-mega:
Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Strength Sap

very funny set that i used once to get spikes up. typically i run this with sableye to spinblock people so i just have spikes up and it's great. cannot recommend sap gar enough. once i sapped a zyg and died to zmove cause it was z pblades instead of z waves :(

:ss/arceus-psychic:

TOWER OF POWER (Arceus-Psychic) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Recover

how have i not posted about TOWER OF POWER yet???? this set is amazing, you can genuinely cteam a lot of hyper offenses with this. they just cannot stop you from getting a screen up and from there it's game over because you go to some other silly pokemon wiht like spectral thief or like pdon or something and you win on the spot. against neo-classical like sunforged steel you go to this once every 8 turns to renew protection against the 1 nonpassive pokemon on their team. what are they gonna do? defog?????

:ss/garchomp-mega:

BEST MON ON TEAM (Garchomp-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Core Enforcer
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Rush

genuine godset. i have this on a team with no setup soundproof arc, no setup waterceus (???), and spikes zera as generally the only way of doing anything (there's no zyg switchin), and it just pulls through every time. either the opponents are forced to run head first into the unsets on the team and get punished by the likes of sap/taunt waterceus and prank spikes xern, or they get forced into UNVIABLE LOSER and go to jail without getting their $200 because this guy takes all their lunch money. once i ran into ducky and ohkod his prank sap giratina with crit core enforcer. this is what BEST MON ON TEAM does to people.

:ss/entei:

big lincoln (Entei) @ Life Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Solar Blade
- V-create
- Extreme Speed
- Synthesis

random espeed will always get you kills. that's the big lesson with this pokemon.

:ss/giratina:

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Low Kick
- Taunt
- Strength Sap

this is the funniest set of all time. its like that stupid curse giratina that never does anything except this one actually works. adamant spectral/low kick kind of hurt and assuming you have a bouncer to block saps this can be a real pain to switch around and an even bigger one to force out. dont get boombursted or cored and youre sitting pretty.

:ss/tyranitar-mega:

Second Impact (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Hard Stone / Life Orb
Ability: Turboblaze / Sand Stream / Magic Guard / give water absorb a try if u want or w/e idk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Shift Gear
- Spikes
- Strength Sap

return of second impact. while this one isn't as consistently good as the original (ph knock/trip/spore especially pre-sleep clause) it's still one of the most destructive guys in the game. zyg and anchor steels are the only true counters. +1 hard stone head smash is a 50% roll to ohko arceus (regigigas always dies) if you needed a range on how strong it is, it's comparable to pdon vcreate. i have not tried the legendary mg 1 attack but it sounds pretty sick.

:ss/kangaskhan-mega:

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Low Sweep
- Night Shade
- Strength Sap

lol

:ss/arceus-steel:

Arceus-Ground @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Glare
- Soft-Boiled
- Low Kick

u beat regigigas and xern and glare at everyone else is the idea. pretty based. iron plate anchor is kind of strong

:ss/groudon-primal:

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- V-create
- Solar Beam
- Ice Beam
- Synthesis

loses 2 imposter never loses otherwise 4 more tips check out my soundcloudddd


END OF POST
 
Last edited:
USUM BH

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Important mechanical changes:
  • Core Enforcer, Revelation Dance, Pursuit, and Judgment among other moves are usable. Click here for a full list.
  • All Pokemon in the Generation 7 National Pokedex can be used, including Mega Evolutions and Ultra Necrozma.
  • Z-Crystals and Mega Stones can be used, allowing for the use of Z-Moves and manual Mega Evolution.
  • Figy Berry and its equivalents restore HP by 50% instead of 33%.
  • Rapid Spin is 20 BP and does not increase Speed.
  • Grassy, Electric, and Psychic Terrain boost is 1.5x instead of 1.3x.
  • Defog no longer removes Terrains.
Click here for a comprehensive list of changes.
Pokemon
  • :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (Link)
  • :rayquaza-mega: Mega Rayquaza (Link)
Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link) (Gen 7: Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
  • Water Bubble (Link)
  • Innards Out (Link)
  • Magnet Pull (Link)
  • Stakeout (Link)
  • Psychic Surge (Link)
  • Illusion (Link)
  • Contrary (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • CFZ Clause: Use of Crystal-Free Z-moves (CFZ's) is disallowed (Link, Discussion)
  • ComaTalk Clause: Sleep Talk can't be run on a Pokemon with the Comatose ability (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
Items
S-Rank
:chansey::blissey::pikachu: Imposter
:xerneas: Xerneas

A-Rank
A+
:gengar-mega: Gengar-Mega
:giratina: Giratina
:groudon:
Groudon [Red Orb]
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mewtwo-Mega-Y
:shedinja: Shedinja
:zygarde-complete: Zygarde-Complete

A
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:kyogre-primal: Kyogre-Primal
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mewtwo-Mega-X

A-
:kartana: Kartana
:yveltal: Yveltal

B-Rank
B+
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:registeel: Registeel

B
:aerodactyl-mega: Aerodactyl-Mega
:arceus: Arceus
:dialga: Dialga
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:kangaskhan:
Kangaskhan [Kangaskhanite]
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:magearna: Magearna
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
:regigigas::slaking: Regigigas/Slaking
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega


B-
:aegislash:
Aegislash
:audino-mega: Audino-Mega
:beedrill-mega: Beedrill-Mega
:blaziken-mega: Blaziken-Mega
:celesteela: Celesteela
:chansey: Chansey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:greninja-ash: Greninja-Ash
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:slowbro-mega: Slowbro-Mega
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:zekrom: Zekrom

C-Rank
:charizard-mega-y: Charizard-Mega-Y (Poison Heal, Aerilate, Triage)
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:metagross-mega: Metagross-Mega (Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Tough Claws)
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
:palkia: Palkia (Drizzle, Tinted Lens, Swift Swim)
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (Aerilate, Triage, Tough Claws)
:sableye-mega:
Sableye-Mega
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega (Flash Fire)
:steelix-mega: Steelix-Mega (Flash Fire, Prankster, Regenerator)
:suicune: Suicune (Magic Bounce)
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini (Fur Coat)

D-Rank
:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega (Regenerator, Prankster)
:ampharos-mega: Ampharos-Mega (Prankster, Galvanize)
Arceus-Steel (Multitype)
:darmanitan-zen: Darmanitan-Zen (Regenerator, Fur Coat)
:diancie: Diancie
:gardevoir-mega: Gardevoir-Mega (Tinted Lens, Pixilate)
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Mold Breaker)
:groudon: Groudon (Fur Coat, Soundproof)
:heatran: Heatran (Magic Bounce, Levitate)
:heracross-mega: Heracross-Mega (Triage, Tinted Lens)
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:lucario-mega: Lucario-Mega (Steelworker)
:lugia: Lugia (Aerilate, Magic Bounce)
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola (Tinted Lens, Tough Claws)
:nihilego: Nihilego (Sand Stream, Levitate)
:regirock: Regirock (Sand Stream)
:reshiram: Reshiram (Turboblaze, Poison Heal, Desolate Land)
:sceptile-mega: Sceptile-Mega
:stakataka: Stakataka (Steelworker, Sand Stream, Levitate)
:toxapex: Toxapex
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega (Flash Fire)
:xurkitree: Xurkitree (Galvanize)
:zeraora: Zeraora (Snow Warning, Teravolt)

Changelog:
Update 1 (Oct. 15, 2020)

See the BH Central Resources link below for changes made during the generation.
Double PH TDS Variation by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
This team has a solid defensive and offensive core. I chose ferrothorn over registeel to have a more solid answer to pheal spikes setter xerneas (without magma) that is rising in use (as well a spike setter pheal audino). Ferro is a nice mabouncer and got quite more usable post ray ban. In this variation I sack mmx and diancie and change them for yveltal and xerneas, both pheal. Xerneas was chosen for it utility to set spikes safely while bringing offensive power and the option to boost and sweep. Is hard imposterproofed by ferrothorn at +0 and+1, if its further boosted xern itself can still imposterproof (unless crit uh), letting imp set spikes but it also goes for you. Yveltal is chosen as a knock offer and u-turn punisher. I have a lot of oportinities to boost during a match and can punish spectral users with beak blast. It imposterproofs himself (unless crit uh x 2). Anchor stand for have a better mashup against audino, impostertrap and ocasionally trapping passive walls without stat control to boost in the face. Its a solid mon over all. This variation is a bit more defensive but still have enough offensive presence. Earth power in xern may be changed by nuzzle or another support move.

Final Gambit Lunala by Chessking345
Fun team around a Ghost core. Lunala is immensely threatening to anything not Dark, which it just blows up and frees Gengar potential sweep. Zygarde Cresselia and Kyogre act as a weird but decently effective defensive core. Nuzzle and Spectrals are kinda the main setup check so be careful with opposing setup. Lead Imposter or Cresselia into Zyg or something. Sometimes Lunala is a better breaker so use Gengar to weaken checks. Dark Z part shot can be used to heal Lunala to blow up stuff if it’s chipped.
Team is susceptible to Guzzlord because Lunala doesn’t blow it up and it checks Gengar. Pursuit trappers are also threatening as 3 mons are weak to them. PH normals are also somewhat threatening as they are immune to the main methods of setup control, forcing the use of the offensive mons to check

Legend of the Panda by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
The ttar is meant to be a pangoro but I dont want the team to get auto rejected lol. beedrill and ferro do similar jobs than in the other team. Fini works as a stallbreaker with infestation+scald which is a deadly combo. Its also a good rock setter. Darmanitan is a regenvest to solid block non-rock stab diancies (ferro block diancies with rock coverage and darm does so with diancie with fire coverage), refridge kyurems, refri or pixi mmx and blanket check for mmy, as well as being able to spred burns with happiness. Standard physical wall gira and ttar finish the team with his raw high power and the ability to trap mons with pursuit and remove items. The improofs are: ttar > fini (after orb activation), bee > fini and darmanitan, gira > ttar and ferro, ferro > darmanitan, fini > itself and ferro, darmanitan > fini and ttar.

Eons of Stars by SectoniaServant
Built around the concept of Fairy-Spam, kinda. This team kinda struggles with Shedinja, hence why Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is carrying Sunsteel Strike. Xerneas is improofed by Ho-oh, Mega Diancie is improofed by Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Honestly, I prefer the other team more because it has better ways of dealing with Shedinja, but this team did pretty decently on ladder.

Triage Charizard by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Charizard-Y which can sweep very very easily. Tyranitar provides offensive support. Xerneas Toxapex Giratina form a defensive core, Imposter rounds off. Lead is usually Imposter but leading with Char-Y or Pex is ok too. Really try to get Orb activation super fast because your Improof requires it. Tyranitar has great longevity and isn't very scared of Imposter coming in as it is doing good damage while threatening Knock. Toxapex is your NormGar check and is a very good bouncer overall, you can switch it into a lot of defensive mons as well as PH Xern and MMX without much trouble. You want rocks off for Charizard to ease setup. Charizard is pretty easy to get in actually as it has a lot of longevity, Tail Glow is safe play pretty much unless opponent has pivoting and Imposter. If everything is weakened or checks eliminated PH Xern can clean late game which is cool. Team has 2 strong priority which helps against non DQM setup. Tyranitar and Chansey improof Charizard, Xerneas improofs Giratina and Tyranitar, Toxapex improofs Xerneas.
Team is not great against Gengar because Tyranitar dies to Sword, luckily DQM doesn't have the boost so Pex can soft check kinda. Kyurem-W is also kinda threatening because Toxapex isn't a switch-in.

Alternate options on the team are utility move over Volt Switch on Chary to ease improofing. Pursuit over Sucker Punch or Rock Blast on TTar to trap and dent some stuff. Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter. Knock Off over Spectral Thief on Toxapex to ease Gengar matchup (use Charizard to check Xern).

Gensokyo Millennium by Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)
similar to penguin (rip) and most other shed teams this team takes some getting used to, but it can be very powerful if played well. poison heal mmy is a neat set that can really go in vs weakened teams and teams that rely on passive mons like chans and registeel. pixilate xern is the secondary hazard setter, the hazard remover, and a pretty strong wallbreaker that can pick off some weakened resists unlike the ph set. imposter + shed is imposter + shed. hooh is the bouncer here because it beats nearly all hazard setters, similarly gira is the prankster because the team needs a blanket check to physical attackers.
watch out for specs gar that mons pretty annoying, youll need to make use of mmy + imposter + xern to retain momentum and eventually take it down. very uncommon pokemon though so dont worry about him too much

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995280850 vs balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995804166 vs stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995811166 vs mmy spam
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995816874 vs ghost spam

Sheer Force Deoxys-A by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Deoxys-A which can also revenge slower threats quite easily (run calcs though). PH MMX provides support by getting hazards and chipping stuff. Giratina and FC Chansey make a solid core and Audino helps with hazards and pivoting while Imposter rounds the team off by providing additional defensive utility and scouting. Typical lead is Imposter but Audino is a really fine one as well to pivot into MMX. You should try to get Toxic Orb activated ASAP but you have 2 underleveled pivoting which should be helpful. Deoxys has 0 bulk so play it carefully but it can be very rewarding if you get it in and they don't have a durable switch-in, also since it dies to everything already switching into rocks or spikes is fine. FC Chansey might want to hit U-turn a lot but keep it reasonably healthy esp if hazards end up on your side. FC Chansey improofs Deoxys and Audino, Audino improofs Giratina and MMX, MMX improofs FC Chansey.
Team has no steel so Specs -ate definitely pressures a lot and in those matchups you really want to be keeping FC Chansey very high and hazards off. Team also doesn't have the greatest matchup vs PH Xern as Audino can get chipped down with QD+Moonblast.

Alternate options on the team are Gunk Shot over Sludge Wave on Deo-A for more power, Moonblast over Ice Beam or Sludge Wave to do more to MMX, U-turn over Volt on Audino to avoid Zygs, Anchor over Volt on Audino to ease improofing and matchup against Xerneas (team can undergo a bigger restructure), alternate move over Poison Fang on FC Chansey, Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter.

A Tale of Five Mewtwos by pazza
weaknesses: nuzzle spikes xern ph, gotta drop it with dbond or kill it with ttar.effectiveness: kill prankster mon set up mmx, or just break teams with the sheer power of spamming mmx, most teams don't have a counter for every one.

uh i don't think i need to really explain much more go read the rmt if u need explaining
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...wtwo-xs-and-a-tyranitar.3652085/#post-8173505

Shed Stall 2019 by Funbot28
there is nothing here
gonna propose some changes to this vr:
arc steel from D to C(super underrated imo, probably deserves a bumpup on the VR but what do i know)
yveltal from A- to A(counters mega gengar reliably, triage and aerilate are monstrous, insane amounts of utility)
these changes are probably ass but i think they'd work
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
bw bh:

ill take TRASH_COMPACTER for 500 likes

TRASH_COMPACTER (Pokestar F-002) @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt / Magic Bounce / Flash Fire / Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Steel Wing / filler
- Recover

TRASH_COMPACTER (Pokestar F-002) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum / Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Meteor Mash / Toxic / etc
- Recover

(note: this mon is normal/steel type)

for a while i wasnt really sure about f-002's niche but the normal typing really comes in handy for espeed sets, which get around prank grounds after drum. TRASH_COMPACTER is overall a pretty solid sweeper especially with moldy, but has just one pretty annoying flaw, which is imposter. the first set here actually can beat imposter thanks to impish meaning they cannot 2hko you, but the problem is bw crits being 1/16 and double damage which is absolutely terrifying to face and means they're pretty favored to kill you at some point. steel wing is the most efficient secondary stab that doesnt die to imposter, you can also get defense boosts which is pretty funny.

obviously you dont run into this issue with unaware and can even run a cool second move, so i think thats the more "honest" of the two by far, although it is a drummer as well so you can have issues setting up (+0 f-002 is not doing damage to anything) and you also die to unaware.

overall TRASH_COMPACTER is a pretty cool mon id say, probably worthy of c on the vr. definitely a bit gimmicky but i could see other sets like sd and drum with actual team support working out.

:bw/latios: :bw/spinda:

we are thinking about banning soul dew and contrary. these 2 are extremely powerful when combined with the general lack of counterplay for dragons.

soul dew-boosted latios is more efficient than pretty much any other offensive pokemon and can also bypass counters with a wide range of sets including hydro pump under rain, psystrike/correct steel coverage, lens, or mold breaker tail glow which is just an absurd set. it's also fairly easy to imposter proof cause they have no soul dew boost. another option is banning latios instead but latias can likely spiral out of control in a similar way.

contrary when combined with draco meteor basically necessitates the use of specific unaware pokemon and creates a pretty gross dynamic. scarf ray in particular can get past both imposter and prank grounds as counterplay, and any dragon will probably not have a hard time getting something started offensively. meanwhile the stated unawares are extremely passive and can lose to trick from ray itself (unless you run mail, which you should) or any sort of taunt/hazard/spore type thing. also, any latios just 2hkos you with draco (mold breaker might do less on the 2nd hit? idk. either way very silly) so you lose to that.

these are pretty big changes and i encourage discussion in the thread. i definitely dont want to be too hasty in tiering decisions considering theres a decently sized gen 5 bh playerbase lurking around, so i doubt we'll go for a quickban type thing here.

that should be it. i have quite a few teams for this meta and we got sevag + tttech to play it today so i'm thinking we might be able to open up samples at some point which would be cool.
 
bw bh:



TRASH_COMPACTER (Pokestar F-002) @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt / Magic Bounce / Flash Fire / Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Steel Wing / filler
- Recover

TRASH_COMPACTER (Pokestar F-002) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum / Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Meteor Mash / Toxic / etc
- Recover

(note: this mon is normal/steel type)

for a while i wasnt really sure about f-002's niche but the normal typing really comes in handy for espeed sets, which get around prank grounds after drum. TRASH_COMPACTER is overall a pretty solid sweeper especially with moldy, but has just one pretty annoying flaw, which is imposter. the first set here actually can beat imposter thanks to impish meaning they cannot 2hko you, but the problem is bw crits being 1/16 and double damage which is absolutely terrifying to face and means they're pretty favored to kill you at some point. steel wing is the most efficient secondary stab that doesnt die to imposter, you can also get defense boosts which is pretty funny.

obviously you dont run into this issue with unaware and can even run a cool second move, so i think thats the more "honest" of the two by far, although it is a drummer as well so you can have issues setting up (+0 f-002 is not doing damage to anything) and you also die to unaware.

overall TRASH_COMPACTER is a pretty cool mon id say, probably worthy of c on the vr. definitely a bit gimmicky but i could see other sets like sd and drum with actual team support working out.

:bw/latios: :bw/spinda:

we are thinking about banning soul dew and contrary. these 2 are extremely powerful when combined with the general lack of counterplay for dragons.

soul dew-boosted latios is more efficient than pretty much any other offensive pokemon and can also bypass counters with a wide range of sets including hydro pump under rain, psystrike/correct steel coverage, lens, or mold breaker tail glow which is just an absurd set. it's also fairly easy to imposter proof cause they have no soul dew boost. another option is banning latios instead but latias can likely spiral out of control in a similar way.

contrary when combined with draco meteor basically necessitates the use of specific unaware pokemon and creates a pretty gross dynamic. scarf ray in particular can get past both imposter and prank grounds as counterplay, and any dragon will probably not have a hard time getting something started offensively. meanwhile the stated unawares are extremely passive and can lose to trick from ray itself (unless you run mail, which you should) or any sort of taunt/hazard/spore type thing. also, any latios just 2hkos you with draco (mold breaker might do less on the 2nd hit? idk. either way very silly) so you lose to that.

these are pretty big changes and i encourage discussion in the thread. i definitely dont want to be too hasty in tiering decisions considering theres a decently sized gen 5 bh playerbase lurking around, so i doubt we'll go for a quickban type thing here.

that should be it. i have quite a few teams for this meta and we got sevag + tttech to play it today so i'm thinking we might be able to open up samples at some point which would be cool.
im all for this change. been fucking around with gen 5 BH and i had to use unaware ferro on rain just to check contrary thetios
 
gonna make a new team analysis u h
:celesteela: :arceus-steel: :zygarde-complete: :kyogre-primal: :giratina: :yveltal:
https://pokepast.es/e18768d88943e40c
if you read this thread you'd know i got this celesteela set from city, and i can confirm, it is broken. peaked at around top 15 with this team. here's the funny images people read these team analyses for now
1620582937527.png


Celesteela @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Tail Glow
- Earth Power
- Strength Sap

you've read the thread, you know what this set does, moving on

1620583237625.png


Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Glare
- Soft-Boiled
- Rapid Spin

i used glare + soft boiled from city's set but i decided to go sunsteel to better handle sturdinja and rapid spin so i can get in ygod/pogre safer
1620584260530.png


Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Glare
- Haze
- U-turn
- Shore Up

phaze zyg-c is a really useful phazer, i needed one on my team to handle ygod and celesteela anyways and zyg-c is just a useful pokemon to have. glare also cripples shit because what else would it do
1620583712073.png


Kyogre-Primal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Spore
- Water Spout
- Moongeist Beam

i cant come up with a funny picture for this one. moongeist hits tina hard and helps the team handle sturdinja, and it just does standard pogre stuff. also does well against steela
1620583965107.png


Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 99
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Recover
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer
- Stealth Rock

mbounce is useful, other than that pretty standard tina. i can finally stop drawing in ms paint
1620584132245.png


Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Revelation Dance
- Tail Glow
- Recover

i couldnt think of a funny image for this one. standard triage tal

overall i think the team is really standard, idk why i wrote a team report i just kinda did
 
since gen 5 BH is now banning soul dew and contrary, decided to throw together some rain in this new meta
:kyogre::rayquaza::kyogre: idk how to make a sprite for this one :blobuwu: :palkia::dialga:
https://pokepast.es/69c41ff422109fff
its pretty standard rain, not much to add. here are my predictions on what will happen to the VR since contrary and soul dew are getting banned(rightfully so):
:chansey: A -> S
i dont need to explain this one, chansey is dominant in every single generation of BH it's available in, and gen 5 is no different now that soul dew is out of this meta. contrary ban is a bit of a hit to chansey, but the soul dew ban more than makes up for it.
:latios: S -> C
with soul dew banned, these two are of course becoming less relevant. latias could still be a decent defensive pokemon, who knows, but latios will completely fall out of favor with rayquaza, dialga, palkia, reshiram, and kyurem white around to do what it did better. you could make an argument for 110 speed, but the only thing that'd do in comparison to rayquaza or palkia or kyurem white is outspeed gigas, who is already handled extremely well by majin
:rayquaza: A -> B
this one is a bit weird for most people, but with ray relying so heavily on contrary, it'll have to REALLY rely on tinted lens specs draco. i could definitely see it happening, but it'd have to be top of B tier, just barely not A tier. not a huge change for ray here
probably a lot i missed, lmk what i missed and why my opinions are shitty and dumb and shitty
 
thread dead lets revive it, here's a funny ttar set i fuck around with

BIG MAN TTAR (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Iron Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Dynamic Punch
- Trick Room
- Play Rough
- Icicle Crash
idea is you dpunch impchans switching in and then fuck with defensive switch ins
 
thread dead lets revive it, here's a funny ttar set i fuck around with

BIG MAN TTAR (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Iron Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Dynamic Punch
- Trick Room
- Play Rough
- Icicle Crash
idea is you dpunch impchans switching in and then fuck with defensive switch ins
252+ Atk Sheer Force Tyranitar-Mega Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-348 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Sheer Force Chansey Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 440-520 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Chansey Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

To beat Imposter, you would need to land two Dynamic Punches (three if Chansey hasn't taken any chip damage) before Chansey lands either one Dynamic Punch or two Play Roughs. The odds are not in your favor.
 
252+ Atk Sheer Force Tyranitar-Mega Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-348 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Sheer Force Chansey Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 440-520 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Chansey Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

To beat Imposter, you would need to land two Dynamic Punches (three if Chansey hasn't taken any chip damage) before Chansey lands either one Dynamic Punch or two Play Roughs. The odds are not in your favor.
fair but either way you hit chansey super hard, and you can just put in a ho-oh or smth to force chans out and you're already in an advantage because its chipped. plus, ttar has no recovery, so it cant heal off those hits
 
here's another funny

BEST SET IN 7BH (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Baton Pass
- Bolt Strike
- Photon Geyser
i fucking adore this set. you just spam photon geyser and bolt strike on shit like ho-oh and sturdinja and mgar and you can ice beam zyg-c and tina then bpass to pixiancie it is the BEST, my favorite set in the meta, its so fun
 
so i'll start this post off by saying, please talk in this thread :(
anyways, here's the team
:celesteela: :gengar-mega: :groudon-primal: :garchomp-mega: :zygarde-complete: :shedinja:
https://pokepast.es/cb6ce44c9e412e6f
this is the best team i've ever built, and i will say that right now. hopefully i've also gotten better at team analyses too.

1624429327822.png

Celesteela @ Flame Plate
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Oblivion Wing
- Leech Seed
- Judgment

shoutouts to city. if he didnt try out flame plate judgment, i will. im sure you saw the paragraphs on why this is good already so i wont bore you with details
1624429312261.png

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Sludge Bomb
- Moonblast
- Shell Smash

since mgar is quite dangerous as is, i decided to go 3 attacks shell smash. not much to add here its just normal mgar set lol
1624429273829.png

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Stealth Rock

yeah this is just fvm lol
1624429504685.png

BEST MON ON TEAM (Garchomp-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Core Enforcer
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Rush

you've seen this set from city as well, so i wont waste time here. adaptchomp insane
1624429539424.png

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Haze
- Strength Sap
- Earth Power
- U-turn

i dont get why everyone seems to ignore ep as an option on zyg-c. its so good against fvm, it just walls it completely. it also walls pdon in general and most physical threats. running min speed to underspeed 98 tina
1624429785283.png

Shedinja @ Protective Pads
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spectral Thief
- Extreme Speed
- U-turn
- Endeavor

shed without hazard control is a bold move that im willing to make, and damn it im going to make shed w/o mbounce work
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Thread is dead so I guess I'll share a boring-ass standard team. hopefully i ping enough people to remember that this thread actually exist since usm bh is goated.

:sm/mewtwo-mega-y:

Kentosani (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Spikes / Blue Flare

Stardard sflo mmy. Nothing much to see here. Spikes over SR because I can lay more of them as time goes on but Blue Flare is tempting sometimes to roast stuff Earth Power can't deal with and its a strong move anyway, the strongest move of the set if I run it. Spikes are often too good to pass up tho.

:sm/diancie-mega:

City Forever (Diancie-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash
- Light of Ruin
- Mind Blown
- High Jump Kick / Sunsteel Strike

aoa mglo Diancie. This thing deals waaaaaaay too much damage and almost nothing can tank a hit from it aside from ff aegi (my improof) and some other weird ff mons as well as fc Chansey. Sunsteel is probably better than HJK but I run HJK because getting OHKOed by a ff steel suck balls.

:ss/zygarde-complete:

The Upright Man (Zygarde-Complete) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Haze
- Entrainment
- Milk Drink

Fat ass zygod that can trap imp and Pheal mons. Nothing much to see. Sometimes give up more momentum than I'd like tho.

:sm/audino-mega:

Elvarderin (Audino-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch / U-turn
- Knock Off
- Shore Up

Bouncer. Yay. This set basically fits my formula of pivot + healing + 2 utility moves for passive fatmons so I can save moveslots for mons that are more aggresive. This one runs SR to set rocks and voltswitch to let Zyg improof it. knock is a godsend against imp/regen/anything that relies on lo. Aud gets the shore up because its my best answer to ttar.

:ss/aegislash:
Armengar (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Defog
- Spectral Thief
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Roost

Hes on the team for being an improof to diancie and turned out to actually pull his weight. back in the day when i run flash fire i can surprise people and spectral for the win but after being spanked by city's teravolt kb (and i was stupid for not noticing that lol) i started running primsea after discovering that i can wisp under primsea. Its not a BH team if it doesnt have spectral. Amazing -ate and triage check as long as pix diancie is running vc instead of pblades. Also has the nice benefit of immune to tspikes as a defogger.

:sm/kyogre-primal:

The Bitter Sea (Kyogre-Primal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn

Regenvest ogre is fat as hell and hits harder than you'd think. 180 spa is still 180 spa lmao. Its another spectral user and has core to screw over pheals not named xerneas. revelation dance lets it check normalize mgar which would otherwise be a huge pain in the ass. uturn for momentum blablabla.

got to 11th on the ladder a few months back and im super happy for myself because its my first real ladder peak lmao. only saved one decent replay tho
gen7bhpeak.png

ignore the gxe and glicko lol

(wow i actually cant find my one decent replay, its the one against anaconja a few months back in the sm bh tour but idk where to find it lol)
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
Water bubble is Here? NANI?
Palkia with bubble spout scarf is op
tina on a critical hit: 318-374 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Water Bubble Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 173-204 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Water Bubble Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 173-204 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Water Bubble Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Rain: 259-306 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Water Bubble is banned as per the OP.

However, this doesn't mean that rain is weak or bad:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Kyogre-Primal in Rain: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Rain: 394-464 (78.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia in Rain: 216-254 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (4x resist btw)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Rain: 135-162 (32.4 - 38.9%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Water Absorb sets are almost nonexistant outside of improofs on other rains and even then they're scarce. You gotta watch out for Pdon though since its a water immune that can cancel your weather. Other than that, MMY, and Impostor you're pretty much set to go wild. Ashgren is plenty fast too so it can afford to go Specs and since its Ashgren its Water Shuriken is not a roll of a dice. Also Swift Swim exist and Specs POgre makes pretty good use of it, or you can go Scarf Tinted/Adapt if you want.

You can do funny things with sun too like Tinded Band M-Blaziken or DGZ or Specs Chlorophyll Blace. Don't try Sand Force shenanigans at home though unless you want physical injuries to your computer, your desk, and your head.
 
My bad for water bubble mistake lets move on

Here's some sets that are pretty good for me
1634208166261.png


Cresselia (F) @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Wish
- Toxic
- Spikes

Pretty basic set but UU i don't see it anywhere ever so i just reminded that it exists and isn't weak to -ates like The bulky Dragons

1634208311221.png

Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Sunsteel Strike
- Bonemerang
- Spectral Thief
Is that pic too big lol this is simillar to Alowak and Kanga


1634208449143.png



Slowbro-Mega @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Quiver Dance
- Psystrike
- King's Shield

did u know SLowbro has 130 Spa peeps only use it for prankster or RFgenvest or soundproof but this works too
1634208619259.png




Greninja-Ash (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Night Daze
- Steam Eruption
- Psychic
- Tail Glow

Tail glow sheer force lol
sweeping is fancier now
1634208786293.png

Tyranitar-Mega @ Fighting Memory/Leftovers/Hard Stone
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Multi-Attack/Stealth Rock

Skilled Tyranitar more to say?
1634208920994.png

Hoopa-Unbound @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 157 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Pollen Puff
- Night Daze
- Photon Geyser/Psystrike
time to sweep for real
1634209056866.png

Marshadow @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Strength Sap
- Multi-Attack
- Power-Up Punch
Sturdinja says goodbye and goes to the after life
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
I'm aware many BH players have seen my thoughts on this already as I've mentioned it in the OM Discord earlier, but I wanted to bring up a legitimate discussion against the lack of Species Clause. Gen 7 BH as well as earlier generations have not had Species Clause due to Hackmons in general being as open of a metagame as possible. Species Clause was brought up as a possibility during Generation 7, however no action was taken for or against it as until now it was largely not problematic. With the current metagame, however, I've seen a lot more teams using multiple of the same pokemon. It's gotten to the point of where a quarter of the teams I've seen since the suspect test started have been species spam teams.

There are three pokemon which see very high use in species spam teams:

Mega Mewtwo X is one of the best pokemon in the meta, hands down. This has been the case for the entire generation, occasionally trading spots with Mega Mewtwo Y due to the latter's high speed. What Mega Mewtwo X trades in Speed is a nearly unstoppable STAB combo. Worse is that this mon has almost as much set variation as Mega Rayquaza did. Mewtwo has Adapt, Sash Smash, -Ate, Dazzling, Magic Guard, and Poison Heal. It is insanely unpredictable, complicated by people running multiple of them on a team. Mewtwo can viably run both physical and mixed sets and there is no one reliable check to it. Its STAB combo and Photon Geyser lets it beat 90% of walls, and various abilities let it break past walls. MMX on its own isn't overpowered, and it can be played around, despite being a difficult task. Multiple MMXes are virtually impossible to play around.


Mega Gengar is nowhere near as offensively powerful as Mega Mewtwo X, being limited to only special attacks. It is much more easily checked as a result, however, it also has STAB Moongeist Beam and dealing with multiple Gengars can put intense strain on a team, so much so that it's possible for a RegenVest Primal Kyogre, normally considered a solid check to Mega Gengar, to be brought down with enough pressure. Mega Gengar is commonly paired with Mega Mewtwo X spam to make these special walls a non-issue, and being a fairy resist definitely helps it synergize with Mega Mewtwo X. While I've always thought of Normalize Mega Gengar to be a mediocre set, it can spread status after using Entrainment to make it even more problematic to deal with. I've seen Glare and Nuzzle on Normgar before, and it is a very effective set when paired with other Mega Mewtwo Xes and Mega Gengars.


Mega Mewtwo Y is less common than the other two pokemon solely due to it being more vulnerable to Imposter than them, however this mon can also be spammed to deal with Imposters that switch in on Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Gengar. While Mega Mewtwo Y doesn't have the STAB that Mega Mewtwo X enjoys, it has similar set variety and can also run mixed sets as well. Mega Mewtwo Y doesn't threaten nearly as many mons as the former two, but half the metagame is forced out or threatened as a result of it. I've seen low ladder players abuse No Guard to spam status to make the rest of the team more effective, and the sad part about it is that for most players, it actually works. Species spam teams have such little counterplay that spreading status makes it that much harder to beat them, and it also threatens Imposter. Even if MMY gets paralyzed itself using Zap Cannon on Chansey, it's barely a problem when your other 5 mons have even less counterplay.
I've seen players during the Shell Smash Suspect Test try to abuse species spam to get reqs. Someone even mentioned it in the OM Discord:

Speaking of the Shell Smash suspect. The DNB result of that directly benefited these teams. Most of them run 2-3 Shell Smash sweepers, which is too much for any team using Imposter and/or Prankster to handle.

I am going to bring up several reasons why I strongly support the implementation of Species Clause:
  • No Species Clause barely contributes anything positive to the metagame.
Of the many teams I've seen over Generation 7, the only ones of which I've seen besides species spam are stall teams utilizing two Shedinjas. I don't even see teams with multiple Sheds any more. Beyond that, I've seen next to zero meaningful uses of no species clause. I'm speaking throughout the entire generation. I've only seen the Shed stall teams, meme teams (e.g. 6 Bidoof or some shit), and these MGar/MMX/MMY spam teams. Adding Species Clause would minimally impact the metagame as a result. Just look at Gen 8 BH, Forme Clause didn't break the metagame for that.
  • Species spam is solely comprised of the most used breakers in the meta.
Mega Mewtwo X and Y as well as Mega Gengar are the three most used offensive pokemon in the meta with my data coming from the latest usage stats. Species spam has made already incredibly difficult to handle pokemon even more difficult to deal with. It doesn't encourage use of unique strategies or pokemon. Again, this shit has literally happened in Gen 8 BH. People started using Zacian-C spam until both Zacian-C got banned and Forme Clause was implemented (I am also not advocating against Forme Clause for Generation 7; I don't believe having both Mega Mewtwo X/Y and Mega Charizard X/Y on the same team is considered overpowered).
  • It is impossible to prepare for. You cannot build teams to check species spam without severely hindering your own teams.
I've seen some suggestions like Sand Stream Mega Tyranitar for breaking Sashes, but the problem still lies with handling several Mega Mewtwo Xes and Mega Gengars. I've seen multiple variations of said teams with very different movesets and team builds, except all of them focus on the exact same HO strat which is to put enough pressure that even well-built teams will crumble against them. You beat one Sash Smash MMX, they have another in back. You beat one Mega Gengar, they have an Adapt Specs MGar in back. Beat the Adapt Band MMX with Imposter Chansey, they just switch in a Sash Smash MMX and set up causing you to lose a mon. I've found the best way of dealing with these to try and abuse paraspam teams, except it's completely RNG reliant and you will still lose a mon if they smashed on you as their speed is the same. You check one mon, and they instantly get momentum and either knock out one of your mons or set up on you. Even Scarf Imposter, normally a premier check to setup sweepers, isn't going to save you against these teams. These teams have high enough pressure that they can even beat Scarf Imposter.
I've had a ton of games lately where I went up against players using these kinds of species spam teams and even my tried and true teams that have gotten me suspect test requirements in several tests just end up collapsing against them. That's not to say I always lose to them. I can beat them using QD Xerneas, and as I've mentioned, paraspam can give you an advantage. But it feels like the odds are constantly stacked against you trying to beat these teams. Games are either nearly instantly won or you nearly instantly lose. With very high pressure extreme HO games, you aren't afforded absolutely any slack on top of the points I've already brought up.

I would like to see this discussed, and I hope action is taken for Species Clause. Up until now I didn't think it was that big of a problem, but lately I've seen far too many people peak ladder using 3+ Mega Mewtwo Xes with near zero resistance. They create a new alt and peak ladder within hours. I've seen it happen several times. Species spam is very common now and every single day for the past several weeks I've laddered on Gen 7 BH for an hour or two and encountered a species spam team at least once, which says something given the Gen 7 ladder isn't particularly active. With the DNB result of Shell Smash, I see even less reason to not implement it. Dealing with multiple of the best breakers using the best setup move with various abilities that can get around defensive checks is just completely infeasible to check. And I don't believe anyone should be reasonably expected to do so.
 
I thought since there is no BH uu old gen hub i think i could use this thread
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-oms-mega-thread.3612051/
The locked thread for it

The Banlist:
Aegislash, Arceus, Audino-Mega, Blaziken-Mega, Blissey, Celesteela, Chansey, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Speed, Dialga, Diancie-Mega, Garchomp-Mega, Gengar-Mega, Giratina, Greninja-Ash, Groudon-Primal, Gyarados-Mega, Ho-Oh, Kartana, Kyogre-Primal, Kyurem-Black, Magearna, Mewtwo-Mega-X, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Rayquaza-Mega, Regigigas, Registeel, Sceptile-Mega, Shedinja, Slaking, Solgaleo, Tyranitar-Mega, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde-Complete

Additional bans: Kangaskhanite, Red Orb

if you go to replays of gen7balancedhackmonsuu all the recent replays are mine Okgoogle4,GreninjaFrench,VanInTheIceCream
So I ran out of ideas after 57 bh uu teams

so i decided to make sample teams of bh converted to bh uu

this is cityscapes sample team converted to bh uu

https://pokepast.es/1c4c126a5d701a85 OG https://pokepast.es/f7cb169b18ac47ec bh uu team whatda think bout it

the links messed up https://pokepast.es/f7cb169b18ac47ec
 
Xerneas @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Thunder
- Strength Sap
- Quiver Dance

Celesteela @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Triage
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Oblivion Wing
- Magma Storm
- Leech Seed
- Tail Glow

Gengar-Mega @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Oblivion Wing
- Secret Sword
- Tail Glow

Gyarados-Mega @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Diamond Storm
- Drain Punch
- Power Trip

Necrozma-Ultra @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Dragon Hammer
- Earthquake
- Belly Drum

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Core Enforcer
- Origin Pulse
- Judgment
Piece was never an option
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
It has been one month since my last post here and the conclusion of the previous Suspect Test for Generation 7 BH. I've wanted to make a follow-up post on the topic but I felt it would be better to wait a while to let the post-suspect meta settle for a bit. This is going to be one long follow-up post, so strap in. I go over recent developments on ladder including my own experiences with species spam, then end off with my overall thoughts on things. I'll use spoilers when necessary to prevent this from being a massive wall of text.
To put it very bluntly and not waste anyone' time on this topic, yes, species spam is still a problem. It may not be as outrageously common when I first posted about it, but that doesn't mean it's not problematic any more. The meta as a whole has been trending more offensively in recent weeks, likely due to the DNB result of Shell Smash. The meta hasn't significantly changed, but it is noticeable. Ladder players are generally trying to win through setup rather than other means now more than they were previously.

Three separate people have peaked ladder in the last month, all three using species spam, at least two of which entirely reliant on it. They did not just reach Top 500, they reached the number 1 spot each and surpassed 1600s, which is an especially notable feat in a less active metagame. I will not name drop these users out of respect for their privacy. But it is clear it has remained an adverse problem throughout this past month. I've seen teams with 6 Mega Mewtwo Xes, teams with 3 Mewtwos and 3 other mons to improve coverage, and I've seen combinations of 3+ MMX and MMY/Mega Gengar. Recently I've spotted a successful 6 Mega Garchomp team on ladder.

I ended up making a dedicated counterteam to most species spam teams, and went through several revisions.
This is the most up to date and more standard version, but is slightly experimental: https://pokepast.es/2b3e4375da692212
This is my older one, which has won against multiple species spam teams including those belonging to two of the users who peaked the ladder: https://pokepast.es/d4f0236957509f56

Yeah, I'm well aware the latter team isn't standard like the former one, but this has been an active work-in-progress team. My teams take multiple revisions to reach their peak. I'm not going to pretend the latter one is great. If anything they're both heavily anti-setup to the detriment of the whole team on top of having non-standard sets. Prank Destiny Bond as well as Scarf Chansey is overkill when it comes to setup, but even during these games I will win with extremely close margins. Other teams of mine including the one I recently used to get suspect test requirements with and those used in past suspect tests are largely useless against these teams, which is why these pastes are even noteworthy at all.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1439933778-c6mhvtcswlimkjhvkcdoac1pw3fy14xpw
It isn't a particularly great battle, but shows me against one of the people who peaked ladder while using the team in question. All of these species spam share one common trait and that is an extreme HO strategy that minimizes momentum lost by keeping constant pressure through making all team members expendable and breaking would-be checks through set variation.
That's a pretty big wall of text, but the "TL;DR" is that the metagame has gotten slightly more offensive in recent weeks and species spam teams are still prevalent. I eventually tried species spam myself to get a better idea of it and how it is broken. I also honestly wanted an unbiased view towards it. I'm putting another big spoiler down below sharing my experiences.
So, best to start with the mons/sets/teams before going into any other observations. While building, I quickly learned Smash is king. Before you go "no shit, sherlock", I was testing teams without smash, teams with 1 smasher, and teams with multiple smashers. I found the most effective teams to have an equal mix of shell smash abusers and general purpose attackers. So a lot of my sets will have Shell Smash on them.

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shell Smash
A lot of my teams have two of these identical sets. Why bother making anything more specific when this creatively bankrupt set will usually autowin 90% of games on its own. Dazzling fucks with -ates, Pranksters that lack Haze, and specific pokemon who run espeed as coverage. I've seen other gimmicky stuff like Prank Glare from low ladder which filters it out too. Having two Dazzle smashers sounds like a waste but it has been useful enough for me. Sash + Spectral Thief allows it to steal boosts from Imposter and reverse sweep anything with sufficient boosts. Geyser removes FC/Shed weakness as well making it well rounded.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Storm Throw
- Frost Breath
- Spikes / Taunt
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser
Has some set variety but this is pretty standard. It becomes deadly in species spam as it becomes much less predictable. Tech MMX is an extremely useful breaker that doesn't need to run band. It 2HKOes most relevant stuff to help open up cracks for smash mons. Taunt lets it break past stuff like Giratina faster, while Spikes breaks sashes on the enemy team. Sunsteel Strike has better coverage.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Extreme Speed
For the purpose of species spam, I do not believe Refrigerate is better. Refrigerate is a better standalone set but Pixilate hits opposing MMXes super effectively. Both -ates lose to Imposter therefore that is irrelevant, however a Mild or Lonely nature could work to reduce MMX's speed against a Gengar improof. Merely forcing out Chansey is good enough if a Gengar can take advantage of Chansey, e.g. Normgar setting up. As for the set itself, Fairy coverage is good enough for all but Zygarde, which your team would surely have something to take it down. Pixilate makes a great spinner and emergency priority as well.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Close Combat
- Stored Power
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
In the event you want more than two Shell Smashers, or an alternative to Dazzling. This set will OHKO anything without question after a boost, but is more susceptible to Prankster/Fakespeed.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog / Shore Up
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Drain Punch
See this? Don't do this. Trying to force a niche onto one mon who isn't fit for that niche is a bad idea. Just use Giratina or Zygarde if you want to use an offensive mon like a damn defensive one. I bring this up because I've seen this done in various ways, and I tried doing it myself to be less predictable. Usually creative sets work out great when they fill a niche like Pixilate Rapid Spin, but some niches are best suited by the pokemon made with them. Your team will end up better if you don't force awkward sets in general. Prankster on Mewtwo is only good if you can find an offensive niche for it beyond "dbond".
Beyond that there's band adapt, but I've found it surprisingly unreliable in species spam. There's one more set I will mention, but I'll wait on that. Anyways...

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Magma Storm
- Strength Sap
- Lovely Kiss / Entrainment
This set is fucking stupid. No Guard MMY was once known as mediocre, if not outright bad. This set is NOT bad. It is underrated for species spam teams and perhaps HO in general. Being able to criplle mons is fantastic, but NG MMY servers as an amazing lead for these teams as well. Zap Cannon lets you cripple anything - especially Imposter, and this set has adequate offensive pressure to avoid being passive thanks to Magma Storm. Its disappointing physical bulk is somewhat remedied with sap, and I ended up walling almost anything that didn't immediately attempt to set up on it. Last slot is filler, kiss works but entrainment prevents PH from trying to wall you, although it sounds better in theory than in practice. This mon effortlessly enables species spam.

MMY has a ton of sets like LO SF and Tinted Lens, many of the various sets capable of running Shell Smash too. MMY is better used taking advantage of the faster speed vs MMX/MGar though to improof them. Usually No Guard is used for that in these teams.

Many mons including the above three can make use of a variation of this set.
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Mind Blown / Shell Smash
- Light of Ruin
- Photon Geyser
Magic Guard is fucking nuts. You can ignore hazard damage and safely Spectral Thief anything that set up on your team as the Sash is guaranteed. With these fast paced games, having an immediate answer to setup is not only useful, not mandatory. This works even if you don't get a free turn to remove hazards and that alone justifies the use of this ability. It is a braindead safety net that can double as a respectable sweeper if used correctly.

Mega Gengar was useful for more supportive roles and self-improofed easier due to Spooky Plate Judgment, but was defensively weaker than both forms of Mewtwo and I'd argue that it's also offensively weaker for the most part too. Mega Gengar is different from MMY/MMX, not inherently worse, they all are used differently and are all great with species spam. But it is not a mon you want to be super reliant on as its Attack stat sucks so it can't make full use of Shell Smash and it is much less versatile than Mewtwo as well.

Mewtwo and Gengar aren't the only mons that can see use in spam teams. Xerneas, Mega Diancie, and damn near any mon B rank and up can probably be used in species spam to varying levels of success. As I've stated above, I've seen someone win with Mega Garchomp spam.

Here's some teams. I make no guarantee they're any good, they're mostly stuff I experimented with, and I openly acknowledge they have flaws including those mentioned above and are low effort. That doesn't take away from the fact that these all had high winrates for me.

https://pokepast.es/ffa68cd76fd66a15
https://pokepast.es/d39f7ab9f0502eed
https://pokepast.es/8a21f414e5df6950
https://pokepast.es/134ab1bd1dcc1233
I've been experimenting with species spam teams for the past few weeks. I've made a few accounts for testing species spam, specifically designed around Mewtwo and Gengar. I made one account to see how effective specific species spam teams were based on their design, e.g. no smash vs multi-smash. These were two such accounts using my better teams.


I'm also aware the ELO scores aren't particularly great, but I didn't feel like going through 5-10 minute queues that usually end up with someone instantly forfeiting or going up against a low ladder eevium team. I don't doubt I could easily get to 1500s with both accounts but I didn't feel like mauling low ladder in half my games over the course of several days to prove a point.
Here's some replays I have of species spam.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453578094-2btg89fr92uxzfiz4cdmyvrxhinlvvvpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453684562-nhd5kov3qb3hdt44x7z1pgozrg4im3upw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1439154335-lffpopdq4ylojvjyzavkt0uwgqixbpgpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453703352-76b32965bbxx28ox4qycaia9klyluvppw
Yeah. I made mistakes in all of them. I played god awfully in the 4th one and took way longer than I should have to beat Giratina. I shouldn't have even won the third one but ended up bruteforcing his team into a sweep. I don't have many notable replays but I felt like sharing these four. Each of them felt like either a win I didn't deserve or an instant loss for the opponent.

I wish to be as unbiased as possible during this discussion so I'll list both the pros and cons of species spam as a whole. It's kind of a long list so I'll use another spoiler.
Pros of Species Spam
  • It can allow strong offensive threats to break past would-be checks. One RegenVest Primal Kyogre with Revelation Dance effectively counters Mega Gengar. Being constantly hit with Moongeist or Judgment, being poisoned by Sludge Bomb, Entrained (losing Regenerator is still problematic even with Revelation Dance), and Tricked a Choice Specs/Scarf can all wear down Primal Kyogre to the point of where your opponent can lose their main MGar check quickly, which then becomes a steamroll from there on because your main MGar check is gone.
  • It can let you win at team preview vs Balanced and most Stall teams. Balanced teams often have only one or two pokemon dedicated to checking setup and/or a specific mon. Multiple Shell Smash users can let you break the Prankster after repeated strong attacks, and Destiny Bond only gets rid of one specific setup sweeper. Most species spam teams have tools to beat Imposter or even gain momentum off it. I don't believe Stall is effective at beating species spam, let alone smash spam as Stall needs to cover a wide base of threats, while these teams are narrow in scope. Also, some Stall teams are reliant on Shedinja which isn't threatening at all to them.
  • Species spam teams are surprisingly easy to build. A lot of teams not being prepared for them as noted in the above point afford you a lot of liberty in choosing your sets, since with HO, your main goal is ending the game quickly while not losing to Imposter or other HO teams. I've made several species spam teams with very little thought put into them, and only had to update them a few times for them to perform optimally. HO being as uncommon as it is isn't hard to win with due to most people having built Balanced archetype teams to go up against other Balanced teams.
  • It is a HO archetype which is not weak against Imposter. Imposter usually punishes setup, however there are multiple means of which you can beat Imposter. Spooky Plate Gengar doesn't need to worry about Imposter. Mega Mewtwo Y is weak to Imposter, however No Guard variants can force it out or cripple it should it stay in. There are other more creative sets MMY can use to get past Chansey, like PH MMY that can spam Spore and set up on Imposter. Some of these sets are mediocre to outright bad on their own, but work in species spam teams due to their synergy with the other team members.
  • It is inherently uncompetitive for a similar reason to Illusion. Showdown does not show you sets of mons if your opponent uses multiple of the same mon. It will say "Your opponent has two identical Pokemon, making their sets impossible to distinguish." Now, you could track their HP over the course of the game, but against some teams such as those using MMX sets not reliant on setup, this is a difficult task. This alone isn't a super big issue, and I forgot to mention it in my last post because of it, but it is still worth mentioning.
Cons of Species Spam
  • You can often win at team preview, but it's also possible for species spam to go south very, very quickly. I've had games myself using species spam, had games going up against it, and saw games other people shared. For as quickly you can win games, against certain teams, you can lose just as quickly.
  • Usually reliant on setup, which means if you have a gameplan against setup and can beat the mons in questions one by one, you might not end up getting swept. This problem is usually avoided by not being too heavily reliant on setup however it is still noteworthy. Setup can lose to hazards, but as I have shown above, it is possible to ignore it entirely through the use of Magic Guard, which is viable on both MMX and MMY.
  • They can be something of a one-trick, as their stacking weaknesses leaves them less effective in tournament settings due to being somewhat predictable for experienced players.
  • Weak to other hyper offense teams. Anyone who can keep consistent pressure on multiple of the same mon is going to have less trouble with Mewtwo and Gengar spam.
All in all I stand by my previous post on this topic. A bad species spam team will be largely ineffective, while you can lose just as quickly as the opponent given the frail nature of the team. I still believe Species / Forme Clause is warranted despite that fact. However, I've also came upon another conclusion in recent months. I don't think species spam is solely to blame here. I voted to ban Shell Smash, but no one who voted DNB ever brought up the point of spamming Shell Smash. Not just a Shell Smash abuser, several of them. Teams reliant on Shell Smash do not need to care about improofing. You lose one mon to Imposter, but then they end up trading another mon in turn as they either KO or force out Chansey due to Focus Sash/Spectral Thief. MMX being weak to Ghost means it's easy to either rk or play mindgames. Species spam is not weak to Imposter if played right for that reason, and that's not factoring in improofed sets. But that doesn't stop someone from setting up teams with a similar playstyle. Having a team that's consistent of, for example, MMX/MMY/MGar/MDiancie/MChomp/Red Orb Groudon with half or more having Shell Smash in a Forme Clause meta is hardly an improvement overall and I predict this will continue to be a problem. If Shell Smash spam continues to reign supreme on ladder, I would recommend revisiting the topic of Shell Smash as a whole.

I have one last point to make regarding this. This post was not made with any attention towards tour games. Especially not for a past gen meta which doesn't seem to get many tours in favor of its gen 8 counterpart. This was brought up privately to me and was a valid point, but ladder is my first and primary concern here. I'm well aware species spam and possibly even smash spam aren't as effective in said tour games. I just don't see any point in being concerned about tour games for a meta people literally won't play if there's someone actively laddering with 3+ Mewtwos.

I'd like to apologize for the unusually long post here. I've been planning and writing this post out for roughly a week, and went over several revisions to avoid appearing too subjective on the matter. I'm well aware I won't get another chance at this, and I don't intend on bringing it up either here or anywhere else again. I do invite others to bring up their stances on things for further discussion. With all of that being said, I support further action on the metagame as necessary.
 
Last edited:
It has been one month since my last post here and the conclusion of the previous Suspect Test for Generation 7 BH. I've wanted to make a follow-up post on the topic but I felt it would be better to wait a while to let the post-suspect meta settle for a bit. This is going to be one long follow-up post, so strap in. I go over recent developments on ladder including my own experiences with species spam, then end off with my overall thoughts on things. I'll use spoilers when necessary to prevent this from being a massive wall of text.
To put it very bluntly and not waste anyone' time on this topic, yes, species spam is still a problem. It may not be as outrageously common when I first posted about it, but that doesn't mean it's not problematic any more. The meta as a whole has been trending more offensively in recent weeks, likely due to the DNB result of Shell Smash. The meta hasn't significantly changed, but it is noticeable. Ladder players are generally trying to win through setup rather than other means now more than they were previously.

Three separate people have peaked ladder in the last month, all three using species spam, at least two of which entirely reliant on it. They did not just reach Top 500, they reached the number 1 spot each and surpassed 1600s, which is an especially notable feat in a less active metagame. I will not name drop these users out of respect for their privacy. But it is clear it has remained an adverse problem throughout this past month. I've seen teams with 6 Mega Mewtwo Xes, teams with 3 Mewtwos and 3 other mons to improve coverage, and I've seen combinations of 3+ MMX and MMY/Mega Gengar. Recently I've spotted a successful 6 Mega Garchomp team on ladder.

I ended up making a dedicated counterteam to most species spam teams, and went through several revisions.
This is the most up to date and more standard version, but is slightly experimental: https://pokepast.es/2b3e4375da692212
This is my older one, which has won against multiple species spam teams including those belonging to two of the users who peaked the ladder: https://pokepast.es/d4f0236957509f56

Yeah, I'm well aware the latter team isn't standard like the former one, but this has been an active work-in-progress team. My teams take multiple revisions to reach their peak. I'm not going to pretend the latter one is great. If anything they're both heavily anti-setup to the detriment of the whole team on top of having non-standard sets. Prank Destiny Bond as well as Scarf Chansey is overkill when it comes to setup, but even during these games I will win with extremely close margins. Other teams of mine including the one I recently used to get suspect test requirements with and those used in past suspect tests are largely useless against these teams, which is why these pastes are even noteworthy at all.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1439933778-c6mhvtcswlimkjhvkcdoac1pw3fy14xpw
It isn't a particularly great battle, but shows me against one of the people who peaked ladder while using the team in question. All of these species spam share one common trait and that is an extreme HO strategy that minimizes momentum lost by keeping constant pressure through making all team members expendable and breaking would-be checks through set variation.
That's a pretty big wall of text, but the "TL;DR" is that the metagame has gotten slightly more offensive in recent weeks and species spam teams are still prevalent. I eventually tried species spam myself to get a better idea of it and how it is broken. I also honestly wanted an unbiased view towards it. I'm putting another big spoiler down below sharing my experiences.
So, best to start with the mons/sets/teams before going into any other observations. While building, I quickly learned Smash is king. Before you go "no shit, sherlock", I was testing teams without smash, teams with 1 smasher, and teams with multiple smashers. I found the most effective teams to have an equal mix of shell smash abusers and general purpose attackers. So a lot of my sets will have Shell Smash on them.


A lot of my teams have two of these identical sets. Why bother making anything more specific when this creatively bankrupt set will usually autowin 90% of games on its own. Dazzling fucks with -ates, Pranksters that lack Haze, and specific pokemon who run espeed as coverage. I've seen other gimmicky stuff like Prank Glare from low ladder which filters it out too. Having two Dazzle smashers sounds like a waste but it has been useful enough for me. Sash + Spectral Thief allows it to steal boosts from Imposter and reverse sweep anything with sufficient boosts. Geyser removes FC/Shed weakness as well making it well rounded.

Has some set variety but this is pretty standard. It becomes deadly in species spam as it becomes much less predictable. Tech MMX is an extremely useful breaker that doesn't need to run band. It 2HKOes most relevant stuff to help open up cracks for smash mons. Taunt lets it break past stuff like Giratina faster, while Spikes breaks sashes on the enemy team. Sunsteel Strike has better coverage.

For the purpose of species spam, I do not believe Refrigerate is better. Refrigerate is a better standalone set but Pixilate hits opposing MMXes super effectively. Both -ates lose to Imposter therefore that is irrelevant, however a Mild or Lonely nature could work to reduce MMX's speed against a Gengar improof. Merely forcing out Chansey is good enough if a Gengar can take advantage of Chansey, e.g. Normgar setting up. As for the set itself, Fairy coverage is good enough for all but Zygarde, which your team would surely have something to take it down. Pixilate makes a great spinner and emergency priority as well.

In the event you want more than two Shell Smashers, or an alternative to Dazzling. This set will OHKO anything without question after a boost, but is more susceptible to Prankster/Fakespeed.
See this? Don't do this. Trying to force a niche onto one mon who isn't fit for that niche is a bad idea. Just use Giratina or Zygarde if you want to use an offensive mon like a damn defensive one. I bring this up because I've seen this done in various ways, and I tried doing it myself to be less predictable. Usually creative sets work out great when they fill a niche like Pixilate Rapid Spin, but some niches are best suited by the pokemon made with them. Your team will end up better if you don't force awkward sets in general. Prankster on Mewtwo is only good if you can find an offensive niche for it beyond "dbond".
Beyond that there's band adapt, but I've found it surprisingly unreliable in species spam. There's one more set I will mention, but I'll wait on that. Anyways...


This set is fucking stupid. No Guard MMY was once known as mediocre, if not outright bad. This set is NOT bad. It is underrated for species spam teams and perhaps HO in general. Being able to criplle mons is fantastic, but NG MMY servers as an amazing lead for these teams as well. Zap Cannon lets you cripple anything - especially Imposter, and this set has adequate offensive pressure to avoid being passive thanks to Magma Storm. Its disappointing physical bulk is somewhat remedied with sap, and I ended up walling almost anything that didn't immediately attempt to set up on it. Last slot is filler, kiss works but entrainment prevents PH from trying to wall you, although it sounds better in theory than in practice. This mon effortlessly enables species spam.

MMY has a ton of sets like LO SF and Tinted Lens, many of the various sets capable of running Shell Smash too. MMY is better used taking advantage of the faster speed vs MMX/MGar though to improof them. Usually No Guard is used for that in these teams.

Many mons including the above three can make use of a variation of this set.

Magic Guard is fucking nuts. You can ignore hazard damage and safely Spectral Thief anything that set up on your team as the Sash is guaranteed. With these fast paced games, having an immediate answer to setup is not only useful, not mandatory. This works even if you don't get a free turn to remove hazards and that alone justifies the use of this ability. It is a braindead safety net that can double as a respectable sweeper if used correctly.

Mega Gengar was useful for more supportive roles and self-improofed easier due to Spooky Plate Judgment, but was defensively weaker than both forms of Mewtwo and I'd argue that it's also offensively weaker for the most part too. Mega Gengar is different from MMY/MMX, not inherently worse, they all are used differently and are all great with species spam. But it is not a mon you want to be super reliant on as its Attack stat sucks so it can't make full use of Shell Smash and it is much less versatile than Mewtwo as well.

Mewtwo and Gengar aren't the only mons that can see use in spam teams. Xerneas, Mega Diancie, and damn near any mon B rank and up can probably be used in species spam to varying levels of success. As I've stated above, I've seen someone win with Mega Garchomp spam.

Here's some teams. I make no guarantee they're any good, they're mostly stuff I experimented with, and I openly acknowledge they have flaws including those mentioned above and are low effort. That doesn't take away from the fact that these all had high winrates for me.

https://pokepast.es/ffa68cd76fd66a15
https://pokepast.es/d39f7ab9f0502eed
https://pokepast.es/8a21f414e5df6950
https://pokepast.es/134ab1bd1dcc1233
I've been experimenting with species spam teams for the past few weeks. I've made a few accounts for testing species spam, specifically designed around Mewtwo and Gengar. I made one account to see how effective specific species spam teams were based on their design, e.g. no smash vs multi-smash. These were two such accounts using my better teams.


I'm also aware the ELO scores aren't particularly great, but I didn't feel like going through 5-10 minute queues that usually end up with someone instantly forfeiting or going up against a low ladder eevium team. I don't doubt I could easily get to 1500s with both accounts but I didn't feel like mauling low ladder in half my games over the course of several days to prove a point.
Here's some replays I have of species spam.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453578094-2btg89fr92uxzfiz4cdmyvrxhinlvvvpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453684562-nhd5kov3qb3hdt44x7z1pgozrg4im3upw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1439154335-lffpopdq4ylojvjyzavkt0uwgqixbpgpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1453703352-76b32965bbxx28ox4qycaia9klyluvppw
Yeah. I made mistakes in all of them. I played god awfully in the 4th one and took way longer than I should have to beat Giratina. I shouldn't have even won the third one but ended up bruteforcing his team into a sweep. I don't have many notable replays but I felt like sharing these four. Each of them felt like either a win I didn't deserve or an instant loss for the opponent.

I wish to be as unbiased as possible during this discussion so I'll list both the pros and cons of species spam as a whole. It's kind of a long list so I'll use another spoiler.
Pros of Species Spam
  • It can allow strong offensive threats to break past would-be checks. One RegenVest Primal Kyogre with Revelation Dance effectively counters Mega Gengar. Being constantly hit with Moongeist or Judgment, being poisoned by Sludge Bomb, Entrained (losing Regenerator is still problematic even with Revelation Dance), and Tricked a Choice Specs/Scarf can all wear down Primal Kyogre to the point of where your opponent can lose their main MGar check quickly, which then becomes a steamroll from there on because your main MGar check is gone.
  • It can let you win at team preview vs Balanced and most Stall teams. Balanced teams often have only one or two pokemon dedicated to checking setup and/or a specific mon. Multiple Shell Smash users can let you break the Prankster after repeated strong attacks, and Destiny Bond only gets rid of one specific setup sweeper. Most species spam teams have tools to beat Imposter or even gain momentum off it. I don't believe Stall is effective at beating species spam, let alone smash spam as Stall needs to cover a wide base of threats, while these teams are narrow in scope. Also, some Stall teams are reliant on Shedinja which isn't threatening at all to them.
  • Species spam teams are surprisingly easy to build. A lot of teams not being prepared for them as noted in the above point afford you a lot of liberty in choosing your sets, since with HO, your main goal is ending the game quickly while not losing to Imposter or other HO teams. I've made several species spam teams with very little thought put into them, and only had to update them a few times for them to perform optimally. HO being as uncommon as it is isn't hard to win with due to most people having built Balanced archetype teams to go up against other Balanced teams.
  • It is a HO archetype which is not weak against Imposter. Imposter usually punishes setup, however there are multiple means of which you can beat Imposter. Spooky Plate Gengar doesn't need to worry about Imposter. Mega Mewtwo Y is weak to Imposter, however No Guard variants can force it out or cripple it should it stay in. There are other more creative sets MMY can use to get past Chansey, like PH MMY that can spam Spore and set up on Imposter. Some of these sets are mediocre to outright bad on their own, but work in species spam teams due to their synergy with the other team members.
  • It is inherently uncompetitive for a similar reason to Illusion. Showdown does not show you sets of mons if your opponent uses multiple of the same mon. It will say "Your opponent has two identical Pokemon, making their sets impossible to distinguish." Now, you could track their HP over the course of the game, but against some teams such as those using MMX sets not reliant on setup, this is a difficult task. This alone isn't a super big issue, and I forgot to mention it in my last post because of it, but it is still worth mentioning.
Cons of Species Spam
  • You can often win at team preview, but it's also possible for species spam to go south very, very quickly. I've had games myself using species spam, had games going up against it, and saw games other people shared. For as quickly you can win games, against certain teams, you can lose just as quickly.
  • Usually reliant on setup, which means if you have a gameplan against setup and can beat the mons in questions one by one, you might not end up getting swept. This problem is usually avoided by not being too heavily reliant on setup however it is still noteworthy. Setup can lose to hazards, but as I have shown above, it is possible to ignore it entirely through the use of Magic Guard, which is viable on both MMX and MMY.
  • They can be something of a one-trick, as their stacking weaknesses leaves them less effective in tournament settings due to being somewhat predictable for experienced players.
  • Weak to other hyper offense teams. Anyone who can keep consistent pressure on multiple of the same mon is going to have less trouble with Mewtwo and Gengar spam.
All in all I stand by my previous post on this topic. A bad species spam team will be largely ineffective, while you can lose just as quickly as the opponent given the frail nature of the team. I still believe Species / Forme Clause is warranted despite that fact. However, I've also came upon another conclusion in recent months. I don't think species spam is solely to blame here. I voted to ban Shell Smash, but no one who voted DNB ever brought up the point of spamming Shell Smash. Not just a Shell Smash abuser, several of them. Teams reliant on Shell Smash do not need to care about improofing. You lose one mon to Imposter, but then they end up trading another mon in turn as they either KO or force out Chansey due to Focus Sash/Spectral Thief. MMX being weak to Ghost means it's easy to either rk or play mindgames. Species spam is not weak to Imposter if played right for that reason, and that's not factoring in improofed sets. But that doesn't stop someone from setting up teams with a similar playstyle. Having a team that's consistent of, for example, MMX/MMY/MGar/MDiancie/MChomp/Red Orb Groudon with half or more having Shell Smash in a Forme Clause meta is hardly an improvement overall and I predict this will continue to be a problem. If Shell Smash spam continues to reign supreme on ladder, I would recommend revisiting the topic of Shell Smash as a whole.

I have one last point to make regarding this. This post was not made with any attention towards tour games. Especially not for a past gen meta which doesn't seem to get many tours in favor of its gen 8 counterpart. This was brought up privately to me and was a valid point, but ladder is my first and primary concern here. I'm well aware species spam and possibly even smash spam aren't as effective in said tour games. I just don't see any point in being concerned about tour games for a meta people literally won't play if there's someone actively laddering with 3+ Mewtwos.

I'd like to apologize for the unusually long post here. I've been planning and writing this post out for roughly a week, and went over several revisions to avoid appearing too subjective on the matter. I'm well aware I won't get another chance at this, and I don't intend on bringing it up either here or anywhere else again. I do invite others to bring up their stances on things for further discussion. With all of that being said, I support further action on the metagame as necessary.
Species Clause means MMY and MMX can't be used on the same team i bet that makes 85% of the community against u


also take a look say this sAMple team https://pokepast.es/bdf77a2c6ff7004e and say ur team can't hold against this many boosting sweepers with one Prankster/Unaware mon


say the clause get passed the vote and is implemented i could replace this set

Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash Ability: Mold Breaker EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Stealth Rock - Moongeist Beam - Destiny Bond - Taunt
with this set easily Blacephalon @ Focus Sash Ability: Mold Breaker EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Stealth Rock - Moongeist Beam - Destiny Bond - Taunt



and keep the other gengygar in its place


replece

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
with this: Kyurem-Black @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Photon Geyser

and so on etc.


with these replacements isn't that same team still weak to this after the clause

I have a idea won't oblivion wing on normalize gar (96 BP) work to heal it up
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Species Clause means MMY and MMX can't be used on the same team i bet that makes 85% of the community against u
he also mentioned forme clause which is what we would go forward with implementing given enough support

say the clause get passed the vote and is implemented i could replace this set

Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash Ability: Mold Breaker EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Stealth Rock - Moongeist Beam - Destiny Bond - Taunt
with this set easily Blacephalon @ Focus Sash Ability: Mold Breaker EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Stealth Rock - Moongeist Beam - Destiny Bond - Taunt



and keep the other gengygar in its place


replece

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
with this: Kyurem-Black @ Expert Belt
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Photon Geyser

and so on etc.
you're neglecting the fact that blacephalon is worse in many ways than gengar (worse bulk, worse speed, worse power, rocks weakness) and that that kyub set is much worse than the mmx set (kyub can't lure in the dragons, photon has nowhere near the same power, worse speed, rocks weakness). with forme clause you can still spam like mmx/mmy/gallade/hoopa/etc but itll be significantly worse because you'll be able to know which set is which and alternatives to the mmx/mmy have serious drawbacks.
 

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