Dexit discussion thread

There are plenty of games that get you emotionally attatched to partners and your own monsters that never see the light of day once you stopped playing. I dont think people are lying about their emotional attachement to their pokemon, just that it doesnt mean they need to transfer pokemon over it, especially considering that I bet most just use the games equivalent of pokemon amie for 5 minutes/play a couple battles on the battle tree equivalent and then drop the pokemon in a box to rot until the next game comes.
I think I've touched on this before, however I think it's worth repeating again: just beacuse you (or anyone else) play the games in a certain way, doesn't automatically invalidate how others interact with said games.

Personally, I don't care about postgame battle stuff - Battle Tower/Maison/Tree are just exhausting to me. I only play through them to get their respective ribbons, and their dumbing down is generally good for me. If they didn't exist in future games, it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

Nor do I care about challenge modes like Nuzlocke. I have literally never reset a Pokemon cart, and I think the extra tedium would just drive me up a wall. Having the EXP share locked on doesn't affect me. Nor does BDSP removing the friendship barrier so the "special effects" are automatically applied have any barring on how I play the game (actually, probably makes it easier since I do like using those effects).

There are a myriad of other ways to interact with the content that I personally don't care about. Yet, I - and most people - don't claim that these changes are "for the good of the series". We agree that these changes are bad for the series as a whole beacuse they adversely affect those who enjoy said gameplay, and wish they were reversed.

You might never use your older mons, but other people do. I just took my Gen 5 Beartic into the latest online competition and I had fun! I didn't expect her to do much, but she took out a Dynamax Snorlax + a Corv., and secured me a surprising victory. Beartic is not competitively optimal by any stretch, but I had fun using her and wish I could do it more.

Dexit might not affect you/anyone else personally-which is totally fine. But for those who is does affect, how do you think they feel when they're told that their way of interacting with the game is a mistake? Or that removing their preferred gameplay is good and they should just shut up and stop complaining? Or even that their attachment to their Pokemon is stupid and they should just "grow up".

You didn't make all these claims, but these are the typical responses to anyone who opposes Dexit. These kinds of claims are just rank elitism, and fail to show any understanding and compassion. I'd ask you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does love their Pokemon, who does transfer them through the generations, who does use and interact with them.

How would you feel?
It's not like your old Pokemon stop existing when you get a new game. Those virtual critters are still there on your old cartridge, available to visit at any time.
Not necessarily. While digital storage mediums are more resilient to some forms of degradation, they do have a finite lifespan. There have been reports of DS/3DS carts now failing, which is somewhat in line with their expected lifespan (about 15-25 years). This may be shortened with manufacturing defects, as has been reported.

While that's certainly a significant time to act/see them, it's not indefinite. Much like how data management engineers will transfer data between drives to avoid memory degradation, Pokemon transfers operate to ensure that your mons aren't similarly lost. And, with the potential closure of Pokemon Bank certainly on the horizon, it's recommended that you transfer (if you have any) mons that are special to you sooner rather than later.
 
just beacuse you (or anyone else) play the games in a certain way, doesn't automatically invalidate how others interact with said games.
I'm not saying its completely invalid, just not worth catering to/making and maintaining a systerm for, in my eyes. While it sounds like the same thing, I believe theres a nuance. I think all your other examples are move worth catering to than transfering, since theyre more active inclusions that more people engage with more frequently and for longer periods

While some people may use their mons more than once, i find it had to believe the majority just doesnt do what I do, and their gameplay isn't invalid, but its hard to find it worth it pursuing when the most you get positively is "transfering pokemon will make people amused for about a day, then they'll completely forget about it" for the majority of players, and "complete meltdowns and scrutiny of everything you make" if a negative change happens. Their awful PR didn't help tho... Balancing the game lmao, lol even. A rofl if you will.

I think its too late to really take down transferability, my idea would to just keep the gen 3 model and not allow it for the rest of the games, but that would need foresight, which is a trait gamefreak seems to not have in large quantities.
 
I think its too late to really take down transferability, my idea would to just keep the gen 3 model and not allow it for the rest of the games, but that would need foresight, which is a trait gamefreak seems to not have in large quantities.
So far it seems their plan is to keep Home (or whatever their future iteration will be) as the "can host all of them" iteration, and then stick to "each cart game will have a arbitrary amount of pokes available, potentially expanded via DLCs and free updates".

It's worth noting that this doesn't automatically exclude that a game in a generation may have all of them. Realistically speaking, if say, gen 9's 2nd entry or gen 10 is at a point where every single pokemon is properly ported and animated, nothing stops them from having all of them on that game.
But that'd be the exception and not the norm.

We also still know literally nothing of the Home / Arceus / BDSP compatibility, which would also give us a idea of what they intend to do. My assumption was that with it would come a SwSh free update that lets all of the BDSP and Arceus pokes in, but we have yet to hear anything about this in first place. The fact they actually announced gen 9 *before* giving any info on said compatibility is actually pretty weird, as I can't really figure why they would do that. I doubt it's technical difficulties, afaik L.A. and BDSP pokes were specifically made to have data "not present" in these games just to ease the portability (es, L.A. pokes still have IV/EVs despite not being functional), so who knows what's going on at GF on that regard...
 

Bull Of Heaven

99 Pounders / 4'3" Feet
is a Pre-Contributor
I really really really really don't understand why some of you are jumping all the way to "backwards compatibility was a mistake" instead of "backwards compatibility was a nice feature that just couldn't last forever without issues".

But then again I also don't understand why there's an active Dexit discussion thread in 2022.
 
I really really really really don't understand why some of you are jumping all the way to "backwards compatibility was a mistake" instead of "backwards compatibility was a nice feature that just couldn't last forever without issues".

But then again I also don't understand why there's an active Dexit discussion thread in 2022.
Because it is still a controversial subject.
 
One thing that has always surprised me is that people do not talk more about how dexit creates a situation that encourages people to look less favorably upon a design that they would otherwise be more neutral too.
That would be the case for me. Even when I don't like some of the designs designs in prior games, I could tolerate them somewhat and get used to it since it either offered a new playstyle, new typing getting covered or does something unique other mons with the same type doesn't do.
But with the dex cut some of these positives can turn into negatives since new pokemon with existing typing replacing that old Pokemon's spot in the game or all the advancement with the type chart being covered or offering a huge selection of options for your team being restricted.
 
I really really really really don't understand why some of you are jumping all the way to "backwards compatibility was a mistake" instead of "backwards compatibility was a nice feature that just couldn't last forever without issues".
Basically the reason for which it was a "mistake" is because by having it you set a precedent + expectation.

If you put backward compatibility in the first few titles, then people will expect it in the next ones. Which is why Dexit was such a huge deal.

Other monster collectible series, say, Digimon for example, or even SMT, never had anything like that, even between "enhanced versions" of same game. Since there was never a way to "carry over" data from previous games, noone ever expected ones.

Essentially, if gen 4 never had portability from gen 3, noone would have really complained of Dexit.
The original release of gen 3, despite having all the pokemon in it, didn't have any way to obtain the others. Sure, FRLG released and fixed that, but that wasnt something people actually expected, it was a nice bonus.
However with gen 4 having a way to carry over pokemon, and gen 5 after that as well, at that point people expect you to keep the feature for the following gens.

It's the main reason for which (PR fuckups aside), it was so poorly received: you went for 10+ years with a feature only to decide "actually no". The fact it was treated as a "minor inconvenience" on reveal and then they fucked up the PR even further later just added to the issue.



TLDR: if you are maintaining a series of videogames, and have a feature going on for 10 years, your long term fans/players will generall expect you to keep these features going forward and possibly improve on them. If you don't plan to maintain a feature, either you have to be open and clear about it being temporary (like they do for super mechanics), or you don't put it in in first place.
 
Basically the reason for which it was a "mistake" is because by having it you set a precedent + expectation.

If you put backward compatibility in the first few titles, then people will expect it in the next ones. Which is why Dexit was such a huge deal.

Other monster collectible series, say, Digimon for example, or even SMT, never had anything like that, even between "enhanced versions" of same game. Since there was never a way to "carry over" data from previous games, noone ever expected ones.

Essentially, if gen 4 never had portability from gen 3, noone would have really complained of Dexit.
The original release of gen 3, despite having all the pokemon in it, didn't have any way to obtain the others. Sure, FRLG released and fixed that, but that wasnt something people actually expected, it was a nice bonus.
However with gen 4 having a way to carry over pokemon, and gen 5 after that as well, at that point people expect you to keep the feature for the following gens.

It's the main reason for which (PR fuckups aside), it was so poorly received: you went for 10+ years with a feature only to decide "actually no". The fact it was treated as a "minor inconvenience" on reveal and then they fucked up the PR even further later just added to the issue.



TLDR: if you are maintaining a series of videogames, and have a feature going on for 10 years, your long term fans/players will generall expect you to keep these features going forward and possibly improve on them. If you don't plan to maintain a feature, either you have to be open and clear about it being temporary (like they do for super mechanics), or you don't put it in in first place.
I still won't call it a mistake. I personally won't have played any pokemon game past 3rd gen if it was not for this feature. And would have only touched 3rd gen because of Firered and Leafgreen. And I know plenty of people who are in the same boat that this feature kept them playing the series. It is legit on of their brightest moves to do. The mistake is pushing releases so that they can't keep putting them all in (I still maintain that they easily could have with SW/SH) or even just leaving sprites behind for the models; which at least in my opinion looked better.
 
I still won't call it a mistake. I personally won't have played any pokemon game past 3rd gen if it was not for this feature. And would have only touched 3rd gen because of Firered and Leafgreen. And I know plenty of people who are in the same boat that this feature kept them playing the series. It is legit on of their brightest moves to do. The mistake is pushing releases so that they can't keep putting them all in (I still maintain that they easily could have with SW/SH) or even just leaving sprites behind for the models; which at least in my opinion looked better.
Heh, not really. It's a "problem" you can keep delaying, but eventually a point where it becomes not sustainable to keep "carrying over everything" arrives.

It's programming basics: every time a new console happens, unless it's exactly same OS, you constantly have to re-code in stuff. The more stuff already exists, the longer it takes to code that in.
Eventually you reach a point where it takes longer to code the old stuff in, than to program new stuff.
Basically a point where "bringing old stuff forward" has to be done at the cost of quality or quantity of new features eventually arrives. Expecially if you keep adding "data" to the entities you're carrying, like forms, marks, titles, preexisting learnsets to carry over, stuff like g-max factor, etc etc.

There is a reason for which no other game company has done it, and as I said, why it was a poor idea in first place. Other companies that want to keep some sort of "continuity" between games of a series usually give "save data bonuses", but that's the most they do. Even "futureproofing" is relative, because you can't know 5 years in advance what the next console will be, and what the architecture, engine and OS you'll have to work with will be.
Anyone would have known that it would become unsustainable, and pretty much any professional developer can confirm it.

(Spoilers: software developing isn't easy, and unfortunately, GF doesn't exactly sport the best development team in the world either, in fact, arguably one of the worst performing of the decade)
 
Heh, not really. It's a "problem" you can keep delaying, but eventually a point where it becomes not sustainable to keep "carrying over everything" arrives.

It's programming basics: every time a new console happens, unless it's exactly same OS, you constantly have to re-code in stuff. The more stuff already exists, the longer it takes to code that in.
Eventually you reach a point where it takes longer to code the old stuff in, than to program new stuff.
Basically a point where "bringing old stuff forward" has to be done at the cost of quality or quantity of new features eventually arrives. Expecially if you keep adding "data" to the entities you're carrying, like forms, marks, titles, preexisting learnsets to carry over, stuff like g-max factor, etc etc.

There is a reason for which no other game company has done it, and as I said, why it was a poor idea in first place. Other companies that want to keep some sort of "continuity" between games of a series usually give "save data bonuses", but that's the most they do. Even "futureproofing" is relative, because you can't know 5 years in advance what the next console will be, and what the architecture, engine and OS you'll have to work with will be.
Anyone would have known that it would become unsustainable, and pretty much any professional developer can confirm it.

(Spoilers: software developing isn't easy, and unfortunately, GF doesn't exactly sport the best development team in the world either, in fact, arguably one of the worst performing of the decade)
You could just release less new critters, and put more time between the point of releasing them. And if you think it would take to long and not releasing games would cut to much into profit. They can easily do one main style game where it has everyone released and then while they work in the background on the next of that style make more side branchy games like Arceus, just without new mons in it that do not have them all. That way, people have a current gen place to continue playing with everyone together, they can still pit out games at a higher rate.

But, it is complete horse shit that the largest franchise in the world can not afford to spend more time on its games. You know it is. The idea that they can't keep it up is even accepted at all baffles me. Like you guys are literally choosing quantity over quality.

SW/SH has a complete mess storywise, had really crappy graphics and animations for a game that supposedly cut the dex for those. Poor BD/SP got released incomplete just to make the x-mas sales. Is that the shit you want to settle for? Like, dexit is about the dex and keeping a feature we love in the series but it is more then just that. It is a fight against settling for less.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
You could just release less new critters, and put more time between the point of releasing them. And if you think it would take to long and not releasing games would cut to much into profit. They can easily do one main style game where it has everyone released and then while they work in the background on the next of that style make more side branchy games like Arceus, just without new mons in it that do not have them all. That way, people have a current gen place to continue playing with everyone together, they can still pit out games at a higher rate.

But, it is complete horse shit that the largest franchise in the world can not afford to spend more time on its games. You know it is. The idea that they can't keep it up is even accepted at all baffles me. Like you guys are literally choosing quantity over quality.

SW/SH has a complete mess storywise, had really crappy graphics and animations for a game that supposedly cut the dex for those. Poor BD/SP got released incomplete just to make the x-mas sales. Is that the shit you want to settle for? Like, dexit is about the dex and keeping a feature we love in the series but it is more then just that. It is a fight against settling for less.
But is 1000 Pokémon available in each games via transfer going to really improve the games themselves in the future, even if they took the time? At the moment it can be feasible by simply reusing assets, but with how GF is right now, doing so continually even reusing assets alone eventually asking for troubles due to an increasing game development cost and how big the quantity-over-quality it quickly gets.

Reducing the amount of new critters, while we already gets 80-ish new species per generation, doesn’t means the other aspects will improve if we ends up getting too little new Pokémon, making the region less unique. The overall quality will not improve at all considering that we are getting an increasing amount of massive stinkers.

Now, since the balance somehow gets way even worse and suddenly we get an increasing amount of Pokémon that are awful in-game despite the Dexit, then that is really GF’s fault.

But constantly asking for making all Pokémon to be available despite evidence that it’s not going to be what GF wanted is just pure denial, and either we accept it, or just stick with older games and fangames.
 
I dont understand the point "dexit makes less popular pokemon be seen with scrutiny because theyre taking the place of a more popular pokemon". Not because its stupid, I completely get it, but rather because I have never seen people transfer early game because their favorite mon wasnt in the regional dex (i.e either post game only or straight up transfer only), they'd just pick their other favs and move on. Of course, just because I've never seen it, doesn't mean it hasnt happened happened, its a big fanbase after all, but even when their favorite pokemon straight up wasnt in the game, just going "damn L for me. Gotta use someone else" seems a much more common pick.

I think it makes slightly more sense for post game, and I don't think its some awful argument, just a rather minor one when imo theres a lot more to argue about dexit (lying PR, inconsistency etc). Don't agree with all points but theyre good ones
 
I dont understand the point "dexit makes less popular pokemon be seen with scrutiny because theyre taking the place of a more popular pokemon". Not because its stupid, I completely get it, but rather because I have never seen people transfer early game because their favorite mon wasnt in the regional dex (i.e either post game only or straight up transfer only), they'd just pick their other favs and move on. Of course, just because I've never seen it, doesn't mean it hasnt happened happened, its a big fanbase after all, but even when their favorite pokemon straight up wasnt in the game, just going "damn L for me. Gotta use someone else" seems a much more common pick.
I believe they are talking about VGC. The VGC format switches between from Regional Dex, National Dex, then GS Cup. During the Regional Dex time, there is a lot less competition for roles, since the whole dex is not permitted. For example, Butterfree was a common pick as a redirector with sleep due to lack of Amoonguss in early SwSh VGC. But when Amoonguss came back, Butterfree was obsolete. These Regional Dex only are appreciated because they allow "unpopular" Pokemon like Mandibuzz and Arcanine to get more popular.
 
But is 1000 Pokémon available in each games via transfer going to really improve the games themselves in the future, even if they took the time? At the moment it can be feasible by simply reusing assets, but with how GF is right now, doing so continually even reusing assets alone eventually asking for troubles due to an increasing game development cost and how big the quantity-over-quality it quickly gets.

Reducing the amount of new critters, while we already gets 80-ish new species per generation, doesn’t means the other aspects will improve if we ends up getting too little new Pokémon, making the region less unique. The overall quality will not improve at all considering that we are getting an increasing amount of massive stinkers.

Now, since the balance somehow gets way even worse and suddenly we get an increasing amount of Pokémon that are awful in-game despite the Dexit, then that is really GF’s fault.

But constantly asking for making all Pokémon to be available despite evidence that it’s not going to be what GF wanted is just pure denial, and either we accept it, or just stick with older games and fangames.
In short. Yes, it would. It gives you more things to mess around with, and it simply makes the consumers happy.
As for the region...since when are pokemon the only thing that makes a region? Take Unova, it introduced the most mons and it is by far the second most dull and boring region after Galar. Now, imo what makes regions interesting is non-linerness of it. And I am not saying being able to do gyms out of order, or that sort of thing but even just having an area that you can't reach for whatever reason until later in the game that is right there in front of you adds spice. Not to mention the spice of small hidden off area's like Wayward Cave. Lore, history, geography and other world building is what makes a region interesting and you can do that with just older mons.
And..it is not denial. It is given consist feedback, just because they say they won't doesn't mean they won't eventual listen. Take World of Warcraft. Blizzard has adamantly refused cross-faction play since the start of the game itself..but guess what. They finally listened, it is coming next patch.


I dont understand the point "dexit makes less popular pokemon be seen with scrutiny because theyre taking the place of a more popular pokemon". Not because its stupid, I completely get it, but rather because I have never seen people transfer early game because their favorite mon wasnt in the regional dex (i.e either post game only or straight up transfer only), they'd just pick their other favs and move on. Of course, just because I've never seen it, doesn't mean it hasnt happened happened, its a big fanbase after all, but even when their favorite pokemon straight up wasnt in the game, just going "damn L for me. Gotta use someone else" seems a much more common pick.

I think it makes slightly more sense for post game, and I don't think its some awful argument, just a rather minor one when imo theres a lot more to argue about dexit (lying PR, inconsistency etc). Don't agree with all points but theyre good ones
Maybe this will help you some. Woolo is a sheep mon, so is Mareep. One could very very easily say it took Mareeps spot/is its replacement. That can easily generate dislike towards this newer sheep. Whereas, if Mareep wasn't dexit'ed, people are far less likely to mind another sheep on the block...even if Mareep is only available post game/by transfer because then they could still have the one they like.

As for not seeing people say that, well, that is because a lot of those people aren't playing because of dexit. An entire local play community of 80 people just stopped because of dexit. We used to have weekly meet ups and all that. But, it is gone. So yes, you are going to hear more from the people who are okay with it, because they are the people who are active because well...they were okay with it.
 
Take Unova, it introduced the most mons and it is by far the second most dull and boring region after Galar.
Disparaging Unova? :blobglare:

Only joking (everyone is free to like whichever games they want), however I would like to make a point about Unova that's relevant to Dexit.

BW can definitely be seen as the first "Dexit" - in the sense that past-gen Pokemon were unavailable, not that they didn't exist as it is in Gen 8. This changes in the postgame as new areas open up, and BW2 sprinkles in Gen 1-4 Pokemon throughout the main game. However, beyond trading shenanigans, BW's main story can only be played with Gen 5 Pokemon.

At the time, I know there was a lot of complaints about this. If you were someone accustomed to getting relatively easy access to your favorite Pokemon, it was a big change - and a risky change for GF given how much they bank on nostalgia. It's really only in retrospective where it becomes more appreciable.

The reason why Unova introduced so many new Pokemon was because they had to fill now-empty niches where past-gen Pokemon used to be plopped in. In doing so, not only did they force players to readjust how they build teams (can't just grab 5 Kanto Pokemon and call it a day), but also it allowed players the time and opportunity to form new favorites. I think so many of my favorite Pokemon are from Unova specifically beacuse of this - I, and others, needed to use Pokemon outside our comfort zones and thus grew to like them, much like many did with Kanto Pokemon.

Contrast this to Gen 8. A small dex means that older Pokemon have to be dropped in to fill route gaps. Not only is there a lack of pressure to adopt new Pokemon, but most big-name trainers don't even have half their teams using Galar Pokemon. Leon, for example, only has 2 Galar Pokemon on his team - though he may use a Galarian evolution in some battles bring this up to a whopping 3.

Now, Gens 6+7 had this issue to. A smaller dex meant that a lot of trainers didn't end up using many Kalos or Alolan Pokemon. But, not only does Gen 8 suffer the hardest from this, it is compounded in Gen 8 by the advent of Dexit. Unlike BW's "Dexit" where Pokemon were excluded to force players to try new things, Gen 8's Dexit selection is ultimately arbitrary - many Pokemon are excluded, but others are included. It doesn't serve a gameplay purpose as it did in Gen 5, but more of a popularity contest (if even that). It forces the issue that you discussed earlier, where newer Pokemon are more actively disliked beacuse they appear to cause the exclusion of past-gen Pokemon. Perhaps this would not be the case if GF had adopted a BW model.

Is BW's model the best answer? Probably not, since it would worsen the technical problems that are attributed to the cause of Dexit (though those are questionable for a number of reasons), and ignores that fact that Gen 5 still allowed for transfers. But, it is an important case study to learn from.
 
Maybe this will help you some. Woolo is a sheep mon, so is Mareep. One could very very easily say it took Mareeps spot/is its replacement. That can easily generate dislike towards this newer sheep. Whereas, if Mareep wasn't dexit'ed, people are far less likely to mind another sheep on the block...even if Mareep is only available post game/by transfer because then they could still have the one they like.

As for not seeing people say that, well, that is because a lot of those people aren't playing because of dexit. An entire local play community of 80 people just stopped because of dexit. We used to have weekly meet ups and all that. But, it is gone. So yes, you are going to hear more from the people who are okay with it, because they are the people who are active because well...they were okay with it.
Uh, maybe I missed something because neither Mareep nor Wooloo are particular favorites of mine, but I don't think anyone was giving Wooloo crap for "replacing" Mareep, considering that the two lines have almost nothing in common despite being sheep. Typing, most moves, evolution line construction, ability, stats... everything about them is about as far apart as you could imagine. When you have a creature-collecting series get to 1000 distinct beasts, it's practically a given you're going to have overlap in base concepts (in this case, sheep). It's how those concepts are expanded and executed that makes them stand out. I'm fairly certain there's more overlap between the various generational bugs/birds/rodents than there are between these two sheep. Heck, Unova's Pokémon inspired a lot of ire because of power creep and the like back in the day.

I am sorry to hear that such a large group of people decided to stop meeting because not all of their favorite Pokémon might not be in the next games. It's something I don't personally understand, despite playing the games since Red and Blue, but I know it made the desire to play the games fall off almost entirely for some people. I'm slightly curious about what the discussions y'all used to have entailed.
 
Uh, maybe I missed something because neither Mareep nor Wooloo are particular favorites of mine, but I don't think anyone was giving Wooloo crap for "replacing" Mareep, considering that the two lines have almost nothing in common despite being sheep. Typing, most moves, evolution line construction, ability, stats... everything about them is about as far apart as you could imagine. When you have a creature-collecting series get to 1000 distinct beasts, it's practically a given you're going to have overlap in base concepts (in this case, sheep). It's how those concepts are expanded and executed that makes them stand out. I'm fairly certain there's more overlap between the various generational bugs/birds/rodents than there are between these two sheep. Heck, Unova's Pokémon inspired a lot of ire because of power creep and the like back in the day.

I am sorry to hear that such a large group of people decided to stop meeting because not all of their favorite Pokémon might not be in the next games. It's something I don't personally understand, despite playing the games since Red and Blue, but I know it made the desire to play the games fall off almost entirely for some people. I'm slightly curious about what the discussions y'all used to have entailed.
For my concrete example: Corviknight. "disliked Steel type" is a very small category, with only two families receiving the dishonour. Lucario gets it for being a pure fighting-type in metallic spray paint that shows up in other media way more than any actual steel-type. Corviknight gets it for trying to replace Spike Bird. Skarmory may be back in the DLC, but it turns out first impressions matter a lot when there's nothing drawing me to be in a position where using spikeless bird is an option.
 
Disparaging Unova? :blobglare:

Only joking (everyone is free to like whichever games they want), however I would like to make a point about Unova that's relevant to Dexit.

BW can definitely be seen as the first "Dexit" - in the sense that past-gen Pokemon were unavailable, not that they didn't exist as it is in Gen 8. This changes in the postgame as new areas open up, and BW2 sprinkles in Gen 1-4 Pokemon throughout the main game. However, beyond trading shenanigans, BW's main story can only be played with Gen 5 Pokemon.

At the time, I know there was a lot of complaints about this. If you were someone accustomed to getting relatively easy access to your favorite Pokemon, it was a big change - and a risky change for GF given how much they bank on nostalgia. It's really only in retrospective where it becomes more appreciable.

The reason why Unova introduced so many new Pokemon was because they had to fill now-empty niches where past-gen Pokemon used to be plopped in. In doing so, not only did they force players to readjust how they build teams (can't just grab 5 Kanto Pokemon and call it a day), but also it allowed players the time and opportunity to form new favorites. I think so many of my favorite Pokemon are from Unova specifically beacuse of this - I, and others, needed to use Pokemon outside our comfort zones and thus grew to like them, much like many did with Kanto Pokemon.

Contrast this to Gen 8. A small dex means that older Pokemon have to be dropped in to fill route gaps. Not only is there a lack of pressure to adopt new Pokemon, but most big-name trainers don't even have half their teams using Galar Pokemon. Leon, for example, only has 2 Galar Pokemon on his team - though he may use a Galarian evolution in some battles bring this up to a whopping 3.

Now, Gens 6+7 had this issue to. A smaller dex meant that a lot of trainers didn't end up using many Kalos or Alolan Pokemon. But, not only does Gen 8 suffer the hardest from this, it is compounded in Gen 8 by the advent of Dexit. Unlike BW's "Dexit" where Pokemon were excluded to force players to try new things, Gen 8's Dexit selection is ultimately arbitrary - many Pokemon are excluded, but others are included. It doesn't serve a gameplay purpose as it did in Gen 5, but more of a popularity contest (if even that). It forces the issue that you discussed earlier, where newer Pokemon are more actively disliked beacuse they appear to cause the exclusion of past-gen Pokemon. Perhaps this would not be the case if GF had adopted a BW model.

Is BW's model the best answer? Probably not, since it would worsen the technical problems that are attributed to the cause of Dexit (though those are questionable for a number of reasons), and ignores that fact that Gen 5 still allowed for transfers. But, it is an important case study to learn from.
I am more then fine with the Unova approach of transfer only. At least then I can mess around with all my favorites at the very least post game.


Uh, maybe I missed something because neither Mareep nor Wooloo are particular favorites of mine, but I don't think anyone was giving Wooloo crap for "replacing" Mareep, considering that the two lines have almost nothing in common despite being sheep. Typing, most moves, evolution line construction, ability, stats... everything about them is about as far apart as you could imagine. When you have a creature-collecting series get to 1000 distinct beasts, it's practically a given you're going to have overlap in base concepts (in this case, sheep). It's how those concepts are expanded and executed that makes them stand out. I'm fairly certain there's more overlap between the various generational bugs/birds/rodents than there are between these two sheep. Heck, Unova's Pokémon inspired a lot of ire because of power creep and the like back in the day.

I am sorry to hear that such a large group of people decided to stop meeting because not all of their favorite Pokémon might not be in the next games. It's something I don't personally understand, despite playing the games since Red and Blue, but I know it made the desire to play the games fall off almost entirely for some people. I'm slightly curious about what the discussions y'all used to have entailed.
It is simply being a sheep, with one being new to the game and the other being able to be that sheep that fills in the Scottish Sheep memage but instead is dexit'd in favor of a new one.

As for discussions, all sort of shit. Some people loved competitive stuff, others like just doing stuff like Poke Ami and Contests. It was a fun and diverse group over all.
For my concrete example: Corviknight. "disliked Steel type" is a very small category, with only two families receiving the dishonour. Lucario gets it for being a pure fighting-type in metallic spray paint that shows up in other media way more than any actual steel-type. Corviknight gets it for trying to replace Spike Bird. Skarmory may be back in the DLC, but it turns out first impressions matter a lot when there's nothing drawing me to be in a position where using spikeless bird is an option.
And 100% agree'd and this goes to show that even if the mon comes back a little bit later, the damage is already done.
 
I remember Wooloo being pretty instantly beloved. No one was complaining about it being conceptually similar to Mareep because they were too busy Josh Pecking about how round it was.

I feel like you picked a poor example to demonstrate your point.
You are correct it was most likely a poorer example, but I do know people (myself including) that dislike said sheep for said reason. That being said, part of the hype behind Wooloo would also be because it was announced before Dexit, so people were not thinking it would replace Mareep.

But yeah, the Corviknight to Skarm comparison is a better one over all.
 
I remember Wooloo being pretty instantly beloved. No one was complaining about it being conceptually similar to Mareep because they were too busy Josh Pecking about how round it was.
Hey man, I hate Wooloo, it's a far less inspired sheep concept that the very imaginative Mareep

regardless, the general point still stands think of all the people that hate new monkey pokemon precisely because they're monkeys stats and typing notwithstanding
"why did they include this awful new monkey when we already have Primeape" for example is a sentiment more common than you'd expect

and no this isn't specifically about Primape, is illustrative of fans being less receptive to new pokemon because they've been denied access to old favorites
 
Last edited:
Hey man, I hate Wooloo, it's a far less inspired sheep concept that the very imaginative Mareep

regardless, the general point still stands think of all the people that hate new monkey pokemon precisely because they're monkeys stats and typing notwithstanding
"why did they include this awful new monkey when we already have Primeape" for example is a sentiment more common than you'd expect

and no this isn't specifically about Primape, is illustrative of fans being less receptive to new pokemon because they've been denied access to old favorites
I don't think most fans are complaining because a new monkey got in instead of an old monkey, they're complaining because they got another monkey instead of a dolphin.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
That also had to do with the fact that Pokémon of previously done animals or concepts didn’t do enough to stand out from the previous ones, or performed so poorly it got compared unfavorably to the previous one. But even then, the “Pokémon disliked more than previous one with similar concept” is already something that happened even before Dexit become a thing.

Simisear is more disliked than Infernape, which while not a fair comparison with a Com Mon and a starter, still stands that a fire monkey was already done before.

In the same vein, Emboar is more disliked than Blaziken and Infernape before them due to being the third Fire / Fighting without having enough bulk or speed to back it up, making it a dreadful master of none aside of beefy Attack.

Volbeat and Illumise got vastly overshadowed by the Gen 1’s Pinsir and Scyther, and later Gen 2’s Pinsir and Heracross due to the latter group already stronger among the back-in-the-day weak Bug-type. Volbeat and Illumise being barely more useful than Beautifly of Dustox isn‘t worth the hassle to find and catch them.

The Gen 4’s Burmy line, despite their “gimmick”, were hated more than previous early route Bugs due to being outstandingly weak. Similarly, the Ledyba line, while having good designs, have a similarly dismal battle performance contrary to Butterfree which got decent stats for early game Powder moves to compensate.

The Pidove line came right after the Starly line, which Unfezant proved to be mediocre at best while Staraptor is a fan favorite. This also happens again with the Pikipek line not able to hold the candle of the Fetchling line due to Toucannon proven to be a severe disappointment despite the potentials, compared to Talonflame which was so oppressive with Gale Wings that the Ability in question ends up being nerfed to the ground.

I can’t think of other examples but this problem isn’t really exclusive. It does accentuate tenfold once unfavorable Pokémon got the spot over previous ones who are fan favorites though.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Dexit thread still going on, eh? *Sees current discussion* Man, I don't even wanna jump into that mess, luckily got some other topic to talk about concerning Dexit.

Well, the new games have been announced and the website essentially hints Dexit is still a thing. There has been plenty of mistakes with Dexit, but now we're about to see whether they're going to make the most damning one.

Here is a list of Pokemon that can't be transferred to Sword & Shield even with the DLCs.

GF, ALL these Pokemon must be available in someway in Scarlet & Violet. I would even say in the main game itself and not waiting for a DLC to add them.

Now, after Gen 9, if they do indeed put all these MIA Pokemon in SV, they don't necessarily need to have a MIA Pokemon appear every other gen. I'm saying they need to do it for SV because Dexit was such a sudden introduction it caught people off guar and felt like even GF weren't completely sure what they were doing. Dexit came with the risk of some of the less popular Pokemon being forgotten. But if they put all the missing Gen VIII Pokemon into SV I'll feel more comfortable with GF handling it so that no Pokemon will be forgotten and give them a leeway of two gens absence. It's not that hard of a task GF, the list is RIGHT THERE. Heck, they don't even need to be catchable in the game, just transferable.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top