I resemble that remark. :b
Don't you mean "resent" Mrs. Malaprop? I kid I kid...
Anyway, I have to agree that tiering Pokemon by pairs would be a total mess since, as you said, tiers shift in battle. I do, however, find the thought of tiering a pokemon based on "how well it plays with others," given that there is a much larger pool of viable pokemon in the metagame--consider it like this: something like, say, Cacturne or Cherrim are definitely useful pokemon and are not "outclassed" if you will but they fit very specific niches such as Trick Room or Sunny Day, therefore making them not as used on teams outside of that. On the other hand, pokemon like, say, Gyarados, Salamence, or, hell, maybe even Damp Politoed don't fill specific niches making them more versatile unless they are outclassed in the current team (like, say, why run Ttar on a TR team when Rhyperior and Marowak would arguably be better?).
This does, however, run into three very significant problems, the first being the sheer number of pairings: there are 493 pokemon in the game with a huge number of possible movesets, and even accounting for Species clause and tier banlists this gives a ridiculous number of possible combinations and I don't see how we would have the time--or the patience, for that matter--to thoroughly investigate each one before deciding tier placement--obviously crap like Unown'll get sorted out pretty quickly, but what about Clefable, Smeargle, Dragonite, Starmie, Tyranitar, and so on? The second problem we face is defining an "effective pairing." Would we use some sort of statistical definition and if so what? Would we have to have multiple tests, similar to the Ubers thread, but then we run into the problems faced with issue one. And last, it doesn't necessarily answer our Uber/BL question; what if a pokemon can only be reasonably paired with another but that combo proves to be overpowering? Could I not conceivably argue something to the effect of, "Well, Kyogre cannot really be used outside of Rain Dance teams, so she's not Uber (yes I know there are other things Kyogre can do but you see where I'm getting at)?
Really, I think the most efficient way to deal with most tiering is to handle it like we do on Shoddy currently--usage statistics. If a pokemon is used enough, it's OU; if it isn't, it's bumped down to UU. Basically, this would solve some of the problems faced with the last suggestion by assuming that a pokemon's usage is an indicator of how versatile it is--if it can fit many roles, it will be used more and be OU; if it cannot, it will be used less and be UU--it will not be an indicator of the pokemon's viability. I know this solution isn't perfect because somethings will inevitably be overlooked and it still doesn't solve how we would ban things to Ubers/BL, but it's a start.
Now, I had said earlier that we should start with Smogon's definitions of Uber to determine how we would follow bannings, which are as follows:
Jumpman16 said:
Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
Right, so Offensive Characteristic. Obviously, something smashes every team regardless of set-up or is generally overpowered as hell we can ban it. I have to wonder, though, with the "sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort" part, as since this was a guideline adopted for singles play it doesn't take into account two pokemon being on the field at once. Let me put it like this; with this approach, I could possibly argue Deoxys-A to be not Uber, despite the fact that it pretty much OHKOs everything, on the basis of it has next to no good spread moves and it dies easily making it difficult for it to last more than a turn without Focus Sash and netting more than two kills (assuming we decide Deoxys-A to be Uber, but I think it's not unreasonable to say it will be). Likewise, it doesn't take into account an overly offensive pair, but I'll get to that.
The Defensive Characteristic probably will be the one that will cause use the least worry, given that when one has a wall you've the option to ignore it completely thus negating it's true walling purpose or to double team it, although I won't say there won't be pokemon that will fit this description.
The Support Characteristic will probably be the one that will cause us the most trouble. I mean, look at it this way; there are a wide variety of pokemon that can do something like this. I mean, take something like, say, Crobat for example; it's faster than most any Taunter and won't flinch from Fake Out, meaning that it can set up something like Rain Dance almost all of the time, a condition that most certainly does make it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. We can add TR pokes to the list too, notably Dusknoir who only fears Taunt and that can be rectified by pairing him with a Fake Out user (Hariyama anyone?), but in that case, could we reasonably say it doesn't count because another pokemon needs to support the first--but in doing so wouldn't we be ignoring one of the key principles of the metagame to begin with? And what about Togekiss? With Follow Me it allows pretty much everything to stat up as it pleases provided you aren't facing a Hail team.
But the real problem is, again, determining which pokemon is the broken one, and brings up the point of allowing a pokemon to be used to the best of its potential. I mean, take the debates concerning Garchomp's banning; the argument for simply banning Yache Berry on Garchomp was deemed invalid by the fact that it would not be allowing a pokemon to be used to its full potential, similar to allowing Mewtwo into standard so long as it was level 20. Likewise, wouldn't constricting the amount of pokemon a certain pokemon may be paired with likewise be violating this rule? And think of it this way; if Follow Me Togekiss paired with a DD Salamence proved to be overpowered, should Togekiss be banned under the Support definition because Follow Me allows Salamence to DD up easily, or should Salamence be banned under the Offensive definition because it causes so much damage?
Now I'm sorry if I'm rehashing my old statements and that I'm not really adding much anything new in the way of solutions but I happen to be hella tired right now and I think we couldn't really come up with any concrete definitions until we get more players in the metagame and can then determine what "common battle conditions" are.
