Information leakage in Pokémon battles

You're in battle, and facing down an enemy Pokémon; a Jirachi, maybe, or a Heatran, or a Salamence, or something else that can run a lot of sets well. It can be pretty important to scout to guess the exact build of the Pokémon you're playing against. Still, just by looking at the Pokémon, you can figure out a lot about it.

Although battle simulators mostly just model the aspects of Pokémon that are "competitively relevant", like IVs, nature and gender, in an actual wifi game, or even a simulator game if all the relevant information is programmed, there's a lot more data than that:


  • Which ball is used to catch the Pokémon. This is visible when it's sent out, unless the ball is covered with Seals to hide its animation (and even that can only be done to some extent, and is unusual enough that that your opponent will wonder why you're trying to hide it). This can leak a lot of information if you're not careful; in particular if a Pokémon has any egg moves at all, it must have be in a Poké Ball (just as with all other Pokémon that hatch from eggs), barring the situation of Pokémon that get egg moves some other ways. Likewise, you can determine a Pokémon in any ball but a Poké Ball or Cherish Ball must have been caught wild, which puts some RNG-based restrictions on nature/gender/IV combinations. Most wifi players by now probably know that Poké Balls and Cherish Balls are the only balls you should put Pokémon in in order to give away as little information as possible, but there will always be some who use better-looking balls for style reasons, and that leaks a lot of information about the Pokémon's likely moveset. (In some cases, like Jirachi, you can use the presence or absence of a Cherish Ball to determine the possible presence or definite absence of event moves.) This is possibly the best-known "non-competitive" way of leaking information.
  • Nicknames. Why would a nickname leak information? Because only a Pokémon's Original Trainer can nickname a Pokémon (barring RNGing for TID, SID, and setting a trainer name to fool the game into thinking that you are the original trainer, which is dubious at best; what would you think if you were facing a nicknamed Arceus, for instance; and is it theoretically possible to name a Celebi anything but CELEBI)? Pokémon that are redistributed around the community tend to be distributed without nicknames (if they were distributed nicknamed, then people would be able to recognise the build by the nickname); nicknaming a Pokémon is thus normally a sign that its owner caught it themself. This might seem like a pointless piece of information, but can be pretty revealing, as I'll explain later. (Unfortunately, experience isn't gained in link or wifi battles; if it were, a much easier way to determine OT status would be by observing the amount of experience gained upon level up.) A positive reason to nickname your own Pokémon, however, is to avoid revealing your entire team upon using the move Beat Up (which nevertheless reveals the base Attack value of each Pokémon in your team to an attentive opponent capable of doing the maths, another form of information leakage); whilst a rather niche move, it nevertheless sees some use in UU for killing Chansey.
  • Shininess. Normally, a Pokémon's shininess is independent of its other stats (because it's possible to RNG-control for TID and SID, two of the stats that control shininess but nothing else); however, some event Pokémon are always released shiny (e.g. the legendary dog events being discussed in Stark at the moment) or non-shiny (e.g. a Pokémon Ranger Manaphy), although that doesn't give away much because the Cherish Ball is normally a bigger giveaway that the Pokémon is or isn't an event Pokémon. However, if, through the presence of nicknames or otherwise, you determine that two Pokémon have the same Original Trainer, suddenly shininess becomes a lot more than cosmetic; although it's easy enough to control shininess on bred Pokémon, if two non-bred Pokémon (determined by ball, legendary status, or whatever) are both shiny and have the same OT, then there's quite a restriction on what spreads are possible; in particular, they're rather more likely to have the same nature and IV spread than if neither, or only one, were shiny, because most shiny spreads are likely to have bad IVs, and only a very few, for any given trainer, will be competitively useful. This is only a partial information leakage, though; clever trainers can start multiple games, RNGing each for a different good spread to be shiny, and nicknaming the Pokémon before they trade them over to a common game, to bluff that they have the same spread.
  • Sprite. This is unlikely to be relevant except in the depths of never-ever-ever-used play, but maybe in a tournament with unusual rules, it could come up. A couple of Pokémon (Unown and Spinda) leak information about their PID (which determines nature and gender) from their sprite; for Unown, it hardly matters, due to the ability to breed Unown with arbitrary sprite/nature/IV combinations (although if it isn't in a Poké Ball, each Hidden Power is going to be restricted to one or two optimal IV combinations, and those are going to lead to "optimal shapes" for your Unown to be; rather a corner case that, though). Spinda, however, betrays its entire PID from its sprite, meaning that in theory, just looking at a Spinda, and careful measurement of its spots, will let you know what nature it is (and gender, but you could have determined that anyway). Should your opponent be mad enough to use a shiny Spinda, you can determine its PID, and thus their TID-XOR-SID value, and thus get an idea of the nature/IV possibilities of other non-bred shinies with the same OT. Pretty much completely irrelevant, of course, but it's pretty interesting just how much information can be leaked from something that seems completely irrelevant.
  • Gender. Although marginally competitively relevant, most players are normally content to let Pokémon keep the genders they have "naturally". Most of the time (e.g. with bred Pokémon), this doesn't give anything away; however, with caught Pokémon, gender can give away a huge amount of information. One (probably the main) example of a random-gendered Pokémon that cannot be bred is Heatran, and watch this:
    Code:
    Naive:               30/31/31/31/31/31, Female
    Naive + HP Grass:    31/26/31/30/31/31, Male
    Naive + HP Electric: 31/31/31/30/31/31, Female
    Rash:                29/31/31/31/31/31, Female
    Rash:                31/31/31/31/28/31, Female
    Rash + HP Grass:     31/26/31/30/31/31, Male
    Rash + HP Electric:  31/29/31/30/31/31, Male
    Timid:               31/31/31/31/31/31, Female
    Timid + HP Grass:    31/ 2/31/30/31/31, Female
    Timid + HP Electric: 31/31/31/30/31/31, Female
    Modest:              31/31/31/31/31/31, Female
    Modest + HP Grass:   31/31/30/30/31/31, Male
    Calm:                31/ 0/31/31/31/31, Female
    Pretty much anyone who's tried to use a Heatran, or similar legendary, on Shoddy is likely to know that some combinations of IVs are illegal with some natures. Lesser-known, though, is that the same applies to gender; an IV spread and nature will nearly always force a gender for legendary or fourth-generation non-bred non-chained Pokémon. Unlike many of the other leaks listed above, this is a pretty big one; assuming your opponent is using a flawless or flawless-but-for-hidden-power Heatran (a big assumption on wifi, but a much smaller one on Shoddy, where unfortunately this restriction is not implemented; a pity, due to its potential competitive relevance), you can rule out several possible IV/Nature combinations for it merely based on its gender, which could seriously help you later in the match, especially if you have a hint of what set it's running. (I calculated the above list as a result of a conversation with eric the espeon, by the way.) I wonder if it's ever a good idea to use suboptimal IVs on a Pokémon just to change its gender, and hide this particular form of leak?
All this is not to mention the other more common leaks that happen for competitive reasons; taking more damage than expected and deducing a Choice Band, for instance. However, even the smallest details can sometimes make a big difference. (I wonder how many "legally hacked" Heatrans are actually illegal due to having the wrong gender, for instance?)

There are probably many more ways to glean unexpected information from the opponent that I've mentioned here; one particularly interesting one, although it can easily be bluffed, is by measuring the amount of time an opponent takes to make a move (players tend to think longer when switching, for some reason). For all I know, it's possible to determine which move they selected by the power drain on their DS, which could be measured by the strength of its wifi signal, or something really stupid like that. Do people here have any tips on picking up this sort of signal from the opponent, or avoiding giving them away themselves? Any apparently amazing "predictions" you've pulled off using entirely deductive reasoning?
 
Gender. Although marginally competitively relevant, most players are normally content to let Pokémon keep the genders they have "naturally". Most of the time (e.g. with bred Pokémon), this doesn't give anything away; however, with caught Pokémon, gender can give away a huge amount of information. One (probably the main) example of a random-gendered Pokémon that cannot be bred is Heatran, and watch this:
*snipped table*
Pretty much anyone who's tried to use a Heatran, or similar legendary, on Shoddy is likely to know that some combinations of IVs are illegal with some natures. Lesser-known, though, is that the same applies to gender; an IV spread and nature will nearly always force a gender for legendary or fourth-generation non-bred non-chained Pokémon. Unlike many of the other leaks listed above, this is a pretty big one; assuming your opponent is using a flawless or flawless-but-for-hidden-power Heatran (a big assumption on wifi, but a much smaller one on Shoddy, where unfortunately this restriction is not implemented; a pity, due to its potential competitive relevance), you can rule out several possible IV/Nature combinations for it merely based on its gender, which could seriously help you later in the match, especially if you have a hint of what set it's running. (I calculated the above list as a result of a conversation with eric the espeon, by the way.) I wonder if it's ever a good idea to use suboptimal IVs on a Pokémon just to change its gender, and hide this particular form of leak?
Hello from a fellow person who is careful about Heatran gender. These days, you might even want to use nonshiny males exclusively, because there is that Eruption Heatran from Ranger 3 (currently only out in Japan) that is stuck as Quiet, nonshiny, and male (and in a Poke Ball). Any female and/or shiny Heatran (or one not in a regular Poke Ball) immediately reveals it shouldn't be able to Erupt!

EDIT: With the revelation of the shiny legendary beast events, I should note that these come in Cherish Balls, so you can't try to pass off a HGSS-caught shiny legendary beast as one from the event.
 
Solid topic. I myself am a stickler for pokeballs and immediately frown when someone sends out a Celebi/Jirachi using an Ultra ball...

Gender's influence IV's on legendaries too?!?
Is this going to be implemented on Shoddy or it too much work JUST for Heatran?
 
Something mentioned in one of Smogon's articles is that it is possible to determine the speeds of certain Pokemon in doubles. The text box will say if an attack that hits multiple Pokemon hit/missed/enemy protected in the order of the fastest Pokemon on the field to the slowest.
 
Nice thread,

In WiFi most wifi players know that if they take long to think it means that they are switching or thinking, ether way that symbolizes they can't do much to you. But in WiFi you can't undo you move so it doesn't matter.
 
Something mentioned in one of Smogon's articles is that it is possible to determine the speeds of certain Pokemon in doubles. The text box will say if an attack that hits multiple Pokemon hit/missed/enemy protected in the order of the fastest Pokemon on the field to the slowest.
IIRC, and correct me if I'm wrong on this (this is memory from RSE, and years ago) that works even in singles if both Pokémon have an ability that causes a message (Gyarados using Intimidate or Zapdos exerting its pressure or Toxicroak's Anticipation making it shudder or Kyogre summoning rain or even Pinsir showing off its Mold Breaker), with the faster Pokémon announcing its ability first; Ubers doubles players (think VGC) know all about trying to make their weather-inducer slower than the opponent's so it will win the weather war. Good catch, though; I'd forgotten all about that. (Strangely, this only seems to happen at initial send-out, and possibly a double-blind-switch after both Pokémon were KOed; during an ordinary double-switch, the order depends on which player is the host, for some reason.)
 
Just a nitpick - there is a way to get Ranger Manaphy to be shiny. It can never be shiny on the cartridge it's received on, but trade the egg and shininess depends on the new cartridge, so it can be shiny.
I don't know if there are any widely circulated shiny Manaphy though. I don't even know of anyone who's actually done this.
 
I may be mistaken, but Unown can't breed. So its form can potentially give out info about its IVs (and therefore its Hidden Power).
 
interesting discussion you started, i guess i should say some stuff too.

i always keep my pokemons inside pokeballs to make then look the least possible hacked(Really, all i did was make the pokemon show in the wild, nothing else, i ev train and give the move all myself) so i normally expect to see the same from my enemy, pokemons like heatran showing up in stuff like time balls suggest they came from the in-game event.

on a side note, does anyone else would love if DPPHGSS had the random wi-fi battle function PBR does? would be pretty useful IMO.
 
The speed of the HP bar scales depending on how much HP there is, anything useful derivable from that?

The only time I've really noticed this is for Pokemon with colossal HP (in the Battle Tower), like when i hit Chansey or Blissey with a SE move and it takes forever for the HP bar to fall.
 
True, the HP bar, will take longer, which means you can possibly distinguish a scarf/specs Drifblim from a bulky one
 
Seals can still be used to disguise whether your shiny Raikou is caught in-game or the event Raikou with Aura Sphere.

As for nicknames, it is (relatively) trivial to nickname Pokemon that do not have your TID. The Name Rater will change a name as long as the trainer IDs match - even if the SID and trainer name don't match.

Something mentioned in one of Smogon's articles is that it is possible to determine the speeds of certain Pokemon in doubles. The text box will say if an attack that hits multiple Pokemon hit/missed/enemy protected in the order of the fastest Pokemon on the field to the slowest.

It's very unfortunate it doesn't work this way in PBR.
 
It's very unfortunate it doesn't work this way in PBR.
It does, but sometimes it will show all the Pokemon being hit at the same time. Obviously, this makes it unreliable and won't work 50% of the time....

Seals can still be used to disguise whether your shiny Raikou is caught in-game or the event Raikou with Aura Sphere.

As for nicknames, it is (relatively) trivial to nickname Pokemon that do not have your TID. The Name Rater will change a name as long as the trainer IDs match - even if the SID and trainer name don't match.

I have to agree nicknames are trivial and not too many people worry about that (at least I haven't done too many battles were people worry about it) and as such, you have to be carefull to mis-predict the opponent' Pokemon.
 
Seals can still be used to disguise whether your shiny Raikou is caught in-game or the event Raikou with Aura Sphere.
You can still see the Pokeball before it opens to tell whether it's an event one or not.
 
The speed of the HP bar scales depending on how much HP there is, anything useful derivable from that?

You could derrive a bulky set vs. an offensive set. An example of this would be Bulky DD Gyara or Offensive Gyara (not sure if Bulky DD is used on Wi-Fi).
 
While this may be true and provides much food for thought, I think it would be beneficial to players if these things weren't relied upon. Many( dare I say most) people that still use wifi use "legit" hacks to battle. Sure, giving a wrong ball to a pokemon might make it "illegit", but technically, if the legit stats are used, there is therefore no problem in the battle. And unless this is for a large tournament, the player probably wouldn't be called out with a wrong ball. You can also edit nicknames and shininess with pokesav. Spinda's situation still works, but unless you are playing nuNU or playing with some sort of sick gimmick, usage of spinda will be rare, rendering this "trick" basically useless.
 
While this may be true and provides much food for thought, I think it would be beneficial to players if these things weren't relied upon. Many( dare I say most) people that still use wifi use "legit" hacks to battle. Sure, giving a wrong ball to a pokemon might make it "illegit", but technically, if the legit stats are used, there is therefore no problem in the battle. And unless this is for a large tournament, the player probably wouldn't be called out with a wrong ball. You can also edit nicknames and shininess with pokesav. Spinda's situation still works, but unless you are playing nuNU or playing with some sort of sick gimmick, usage of spinda will be rare, rendering this "trick" basically useless.

Smogon's Wi-Fi rules specifically prohibit using unobtainable Pokeballs, except for Pokemon who only come in the standard Pokeball anyway (i.e. the starters and fossils). Those who don't comply are blacklisted.

EDIT: Wait, you're a Wifier, you should know this already.
 
As for nicknames, it is (relatively) trivial to nickname Pokemon that do not have your TID. The Name Rater will change a name as long as the trainer IDs match - even if the SID and trainer name don't match.

Agreed here as an event Jirachi TID was the same as my trained TID and it let me nickname it. While we care about Pokemon legitimacy, is the legitimacy of an actual savefile so important? If someone hacks their TID then renames and trades an event Pokemon it would still be considered legit right?
 
I've thought for a while that faster Pokemon take SS damage first. Is this true or is it determined by host or something?
 
I've thought for a while that faster Pokemon take SS damage first. Is this true or is it determined by host or something?

I assume you mean SR, and I'm pretty sure this is true.

I'm planning a strategy that involves a medium speed Intimidater and a Fake Out-er to lead in double battles.

Intimidate reveals which Poke is faster, and that Pokemon's the one you fake out.


I really like the idea of bluffing an opponent into thinking you're running one set when you're really running another (namely, faking a choice item).
 
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