np: Latios - "unban me"

[MetaNite]

I didn't play much suspect during Latias testing, but I'm starting to get into the ladder. As far as I know, Latios isn't a huge threat. So far a mixed Dragon Dance sweeping set has been doing well (only thing I've used):

Latios @ Life Orb
Dragon Dance / Outrage / Thunderbolt / Recover
216 Atk / 116 SpA / 176 Spe Hasty

This guy just rips through stall teams, OHKOes Blissey after SR and a Dragon Dance. I guess you can even replace Recover with Surf for Hippowdon or something else if you wanted to.

I don't think Latios is Uber by any means. However it will definately be a top tier OU Pokemon if it joins standard.

 

[Stellar]

The main problem with most of the mixed sets is that Salamence simply does them better unless you utilize what sets Latios apart, its high base Speed. I've seen a lot of people using Naughty Dragon Dancers or Naughty Life Orb + 4 attack sets which just lack the raw power that Salamence offers. I really think that Latios should stick to CM / Specs / Life Orb + 3 attacks and Recover. It's what it does best.

Also that never OHKOes max / max Blissey after SR.

 

[Syberia]

Most Blisseys are Calm these days, though.

 

[haunter]

I didn't play much suspect during Latias testing, but I'm starting to get into the ladder. As far as I know, Latios isn't a huge threat. So far a mixed Dragon Dance sweeping set has been doing well (only thing I've used):

Latios @ Life Orb
Dragon Dance / Outrage / Thunderbolt / Recover
216 Atk / 116 SpA / 176 Spe Hasty

This guy just rips through stall teams, OHKOes Blissey after SR and a Dragon Dance. I guess you can even replace Recover with Surf for Hippowdon or something else if you wanted to.

I don't think Latios is Uber by any means. However it will definately be a top tier OU Pokemon if it joins standard.

I'm going to test a mixed set too. But I ran some calcs and to have an almost guaranteed OHKO on a max\max positive blissey, you need 252 atk evs and a positive nature (83.05% - 97.76%). I think you should be sure to ohko her, otherwise she can status you and ruin your sweep.

 

[Stathakis]

Let it be known that Subdra grabs the metagame by the balls. Choiced Latias locked into Surf are setup fodder, it can provide a check to Scizor and Metagross (which are everywhere), and after a DD or two it's capable of sweeping most of the current metagame.

this. I made a pretty terrible team just to screw around, played horribly, but by abusing ddkingdra, I managed to get into the top 3. ddkingdra just assrapes everything. I'll be testing this out a little later tonight, but by the looks of it with this steel/dragon metagame subagility empoleon is gonna rape pretty hard as well.

 

[MetaNite]

I'm going to test a mixed set too. But I ran some calcs and to have an almost guaranteed OHKO on a max\max positive blissey, you need 252 atk evs and a positive nature (83.05% - 97.76%). I think you should be sure to ohko her, otherwise she can status you and ruin your sweep.

It's very rare a Blissey has 252 in HP, and even rarer it hasn't taken any damage so that's not really a problem. Even then, it's a 2HKO and Blissey can't switch or will die to Stealth Rock coming in again.

I use Latios on my team to take out Blissey, something Salamence can't really do (as in lure out Blissey). Those EVs give 331 in Speed aswell, meaning that you don't have to worry about and Scarf Flygon, Jirachi, Salamence, or Infernape ending your sweep either.

 

[RaikouLover]

Latios with Positive Nature and Max HP will OHKO Blissey with Outrage (88% Min), case closed. I got mad though because a Blissey actually stayed in on my latios after it Dragon Danced and I overpredicted (seriously, are people that cocky?)

Originally Posted by Stellar
The main problem with most of the mixed sets is that Salamence simply does them better unless you utilize what sets Latios apart, its high base Speed. I've seen a lot of people using Naughty Dragon Dancers or Naughty Life Orb + 4 attack sets which just lack the raw power that Salamence offers.

That is a misconception. Yes, statistically Salamence does them better, which is something I posted in the beginning of my thread in main thread. A Naughty Latios will reach 306 / 308 / 309 in Attack / Special Attack / Speed with a spread of 252 / 44 / 212, Naughty. Salamence can reach 307 / 319 / 328 by simply using a 4 / 252 / 252 Naive spread.

However, you MUST look at other factors. Latios has different targets which can be more disasterous for the other team such as Tyranitar, Metagross, and Blissey. Furthermore, Latios doesn't have Stealth Rock weakness and can set up a little easier with more resists. Saying Salamence just does everything better by stats is a poor reason. Take Kingdra for example, Salamence and Dragonite can both run Dragon Dance, Outrage, Aqua Tail , Substitute with higher base stats in every category but they don't "outclass" Kingdra at all because of different typing and targets.

 

[haunter]

Latios with Positive Nature and Max HP will OHKO Blissey with Outrage (88% Min).

I think you meant max Atk.

Also, the real advantage DD Latios has over Salamence is that people usually switch in their special wall just to see Latios dragon dancing in their faces. If you're lucky you can even dragon dance twice, something that Salamence rarely can do.

 

[Robo-Onion]

Is CB Latios a good idea? I've been using it to some success, mainly just taking out a surprised Blissey. Also, you have more room to use attacking moves, I've removed some confident Scizors and Metagross (Metagri?) with a CB Earthquake. The problem is, I'm not taking advantage of its massive SpA, and I'm losing Spd to DD sets.

 

[reyscarface]

Observation:

Magnezone is EVERYWHERE, same thing for Heracross.

I understand the reason of magnezone, since usually called Lati@s counters are steel type pokemons, magnezone can give you a victory.

I dont find DD Latios usable at ALL.
It doesnt pack the power as a "normal" Latios and the surprise factor isnt worth it like a CB Swampert or something.

Maybe Trying DD just for speed boost and use a full Special offensive set?

 

[Scofield]

A few points:

1. Kingdra doesn't really check scizor or metagross, since even though both take a hard hit from waterfall it is still not even a 2hko on metagross (Damage: 31.23% - 36.88% waterfall to 0/0 gross). However, I am surprised as I thought Kingdra would be taken down a peg by latios. Maybe my kingdra team isn't so outdated after all.

2. Why is heracross every where? Is it scarfed? Do they pursuit or megahorn?

3. A mixed set is definitely intriguing, I have a hunch I'd still prefer mixmence though. Can't wait to try this out, probably can't til Friday at the earliest though.

 

[Stellar]

MY THOUGHTS ON LATIOS

Introduction:
Ok. So I've been really successful on suspect so far and was able to get kd24 to #2 with my team (and just managed to grab the position myself; however, it is a little bit early for that to matter at all). I thought that I would give my opening impressions of Latios.

My experiences using Latios:
By far the most successful Latios set for me has been Life Orb + 3 Attacks + Roost. I've been running Thunderbolt in order to take care of Vaporeon / Suicune / Empoleon a lot easier and it has been working wonders. Modest is really necessary in order to get a lot of the KOes, and I've never really found myself wanting to use Timid (I haven't lost any necessary Speed ties). Latios has proven to be a great switch-in to Infernape due to its handy Fire and Fighting resistances and access to Roost / Recover. Even HP Ice doesn't 2HKO due to Latios' impressive 110 base Special Defense. Surf is a great coverage move and I would implore anyone who is currently using something like Grass Knot to immediately switch over. Specs set really suffers from a lack of durability and isn't able to switch in on nearly as much due to the lack of Intimidate (a major plus that Salamence has over it's dragon-brethren). Mixed sets don't perform very well and are better left to Salamence. Calm Mind has issues setting up due to the lack of physical Defense, however I've seen simple offensive Life Orb + CM + 3 Attack sets work well.

My experiences countering Latios:
As for how I particularly take care of Latios, it hasn't been a problem at all. I have no doubt in my mind at this point that it will end up in the OU tier (yes, I know this is a bit early). I've been running a VERY bulky (specially) Scizor that is capable of switching in on any Latios and either KO it with Pursuit off the bat or knock it out with 2 Bullet Punches / 1 U-Turn. Metagross also does a great job of taking it out either with Meteor Mash or Explosion, although it has to invest heavily in HP due to the fact that Surf takes a huge chunk out of Metagross' HP. Life Orb Jolteon (oh my, I'm giving away a large portion of my team here; although I'll probably end up posting it soon anyway) is capable of revenge killing Latios with Shadow Ball (doing ~70% unboosted). Ice Shard Mamoswine can also 2HKO Latios, easily revenge killing it. Toxic Jirachi also does a great job of finishing off any Latios that lacks Substitute or Safeguard (which most of them do). Tyranitar doesn't like switching in due to the threat of Surf, however if it manages to switch in on Dragon Pulse, it can KO with Pursuit or Crunch. Heatran has issues switching in on Surf and takes a large chunk of damage from Thunderbolt (I've actually OHKOed Heatran with a Draco Meteor Crit). So, the main deal here is that the bulky Steels in OU (excluding Heatran), do a fantastic job of countering Latios, and due to its low(er) Defenses, it is easily revenge killed.

How the metagame is changing:
Scizor is as common as ever, and Steels are still increasing in popularity (although I have a feeling that the Steel type would continue to dominate in the absence of Latios and Latias due to the threat of Salamence). Heracross has definitely become more common, but nowhere near the level that many of the people in this thread are making it out to be. CB Heracross can't switch in on anything that Life Orb Latios carries. Choice Scarf is capable of KOing Latios on the rebound if necessary. "Double-Dragon" is by far the most popular strategy at the moment, however I see a large number of people pairing Latios with Salamence, which in my mind is a bit of a mistake. It needs to be paired with something like Kingdra that shares fewer weakness. (Kingdra also takes down a large portion of the current metagame). Blissey is once again rising in popularity due to the threat of Specs Latios and the relatively low number of counters available for it. Gengar is no where to be seen, despite the fact that it could be used to revenge kill Latios to some extent.

 

[kd24]

i personally love kingras bulkiness right now, being able to completely set up on stuff like starmie (who only manages a 3hko at best) as well as stuff like specs latios on surf or scarftran on fire blast. kingdra is definitely one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now.

being able to counter mixnape doesn't hurt either.

 

[Gaborik]

Latios with Positive Nature and Max HP will OHKO Blissey with Outrage (88% Min), case closed. I got mad though because a Blissey actually stayed in on my latios after it Dragon Danced and I overpredicted (seriously, are people that cocky?)



That is a misconception. Yes, statistically Salamence does them better, which is something I posted in the beginning of my thread in main thread. A Naughty Latios will reach 306 / 308 / 309 in Attack / Special Attack / Speed with a spread of 252 / 44 / 212, Naughty. Salamence can reach 307 / 319 / 328 by simply using a 4 / 252 / 252 Naive spread.

However, you MUST look at other factors. Latios has different targets which can be more disasterous for the other team such as Tyranitar, Metagross, and Blissey. Furthermore, Latios doesn't have Stealth Rock weakness and can set up a little easier with more resists. Saying Salamence just does everything better by stats is a poor reason. Take Kingdra for example, Salamence and Dragonite can both run Dragon Dance, Outrage, Aqua Tail , Substitute with higher base stats in every category but they don't "outclass" Kingdra at all because of different typing and targets.

Blah blah blah I theorymon a lot and use stats and numbers to back it up without actually showing or giving an example of a log or situation as to why it is better - it is better on paper so it must be true! From my experience on the ladder Salamence still is better on most levels. Latios can set up with more resistances? What about the greater amount of weaknesses tagged on? I'll take a 25% stealth rock weakness if I don't have to tag on bug, dark, and ghost weaknesses as well. Whatever, I just would rather see a log proving your claim rather than a bunch of numbers thrown at us - lets see the numbers in action not just on paper. From what I have seen/experienced, Salamence ability to get a real fire attack in Fire Blast(HP:fire is gimmicky and for Scizor only - I rarely see it used) sets it WAY farther apart from Latios in the mixed category. The ability to not be walled by staple steel types (Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi, Scizor) is much better in action. Latios answer to those guys is to use Surf - which is a dangerous choice to be locked into with Specs - and with Life Orb some of these guys I mentioned can take the hit with proper EV investments and threaten Latios immediately (Scizor and Metagross namely).

Dragon attacks everywhere, steel types everywhere. Just throwing out your steel types to take oncoming dragon attacks is dangerous as you need HP investments to actually stand up to some of the attacks SpecsLatios can throw at you. I still see a metagame stuck in 2 steels minimum on each team, with more than likely 2 dragons added to the team as well. There seems to be a distinct lack of variety so far. It is kind of boring to keep seeing: Flygon, Salamence, Latios, Kingdra on the dragon side - Metagross, Scizor, Heatran on the steel side, and then some tossed in Blissey, Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Jolteon, Gyarados, and some other generals I am forgetting. I haven't seen much of any presence of stall at all in my battles. The Latios I fear the most would be the Specs or Life Orb types. The DD one just doesn't quite get it done when Salamence does it better. Now if Salamence clears out his own "checks/counters" against the DD set then Latios can use it well enough.

I really want to test out the "It's a Trap!" Scizor in the analysis. It works well for Latios - but if your opponent doesn't run Latios it isn't completely useless either (still can trap some things like Celebi without HP:Fire, Starmies, Gengar, etc.) I saw someone using a variant of it (with Choice Band instead of the Life Orb/Expert Belt - but they ran the bulky EV spread), and it looked like it worked well as a check to Latios.

 

[Naxte]

I've been trying a few different Latios sets on the suspect Ladder and here's what I've experienced so far.

I first tried to go with a Physical Latios, but it just didn't seem to have enough kick and didn't work so well as a result. Then I went Special, with Choice Specs. It worked fairly well, but the inability to switch attacks as a result keeps in under control.

I haven't tried the Life Orb or Calm Mind sets yet, but I have face a Calm Mind Latios. It's powerful, but it's 80/80 defenses on the physical side have allowed me to be able to handle it with things like Metagross.

So, so far, it's looking like it would be fine in OU to me. I'll keep testing though (when I have time at least; school is keeping me busy lately) and see what results some other sets it can run will give me.

 

[tennisace]

I really want to test out the "It's a Trap!" Scizor in the analysis. It works well for Latios - but if your opponent doesn't run Latios it isn't completely useless either (still can trap some things like Celebi without HP:Fire, Starmies, Gengar, etc.) I saw someone using a variant of it (with Choice Band instead of the Life Orb/Expert Belt - but they ran the bulky EV spread), and it looked like it worked well as a check to Latios.

There are a lot of people running Bulky CB Scizor, myself among them. TBQH the bulk really helps when facing Latios, since even without Max attack you still tear through most things like paper, and the added bulk is infinitely useful when facing down Dragon after Dragon. I'm running all out offense at the moment and really, you can't stop it. The only major threats to my team are Metagross and Vaporeon, and one is stopped by Scarftran, the other by Specs Latios with Thunderbolt (soon to be changed to Stellar's set). I absolutely love this metagame right now, even if everyone says its centralized around Dragons and Steels. This isn't even that bad since Mamoswine basically rapes the metagame (Sans Kingdra, but it can't switch in on EQ). One thing I've noticed is REALLY stupid use of Magnezone. I'm talking about at the first sight of Scizor, they go straight to zone like a junkie looking for a fix. I've gotten to the point that I don't Pursuit early game, I come in on Scizors and Superpower off the bat. 90% of the time I nab Zone for the OHKO, and save Scizor for Latios later. The other 10% of the time people switch in things like Heracross and Latios, knowing that I can't touch them while locked into Superpower.

 

[JLei2k]

There are a lot of people running Bulky CB Scizor, myself among them. TBQH the bulk really helps when facing Latios, since even without Max attack you still tear through most things like paper, and the added bulk is infinitely useful when facing down Dragon after Dragon. I'm running all out offense at the moment and really, you can't stop it. The only major threats to my team are Metagross and Vaporeon, and one is stopped by Scarftran, the other by Specs Latios with Thunderbolt (soon to be changed to Stellar's set). I absolutely love this metagame right now, even if everyone says its centralized around Dragons and Steels. This isn't even that bad since Mamoswine basically rapes the metagame (Sans Kingdra, but it can't switch in on EQ). One thing I've noticed is REALLY stupid use of Magnezone. I'm talking about at the first sight of Scizor, they go straight to zone like a junkie looking for a fix. I've gotten to the point that I don't Pursuit early game, I come in on Scizors and Superpower off the bat. 90% of the time I nab Zone for the OHKO, and save Scizor for Latios later. The other 10% of the time people switch in things like Heracross and Latios, knowing that I can't touch them while locked into Superpower.

I'm running uber trapper Scizor with a Shed Shell. Gives you impunity to Pursuit Latios (since it's so bulky) and then when the Zone comes in from the revenge kill they lock themselves into HP fire and Latios comes in and laughs and sets up a CM. Used since today and haven't been beaten yet since people don't have an answer for it and just expect Zone to be their 100% counter. Yes overspecialized (especially with Shed Shell) but that's how the suspect metagame is and he's too valuable to lose it to Magnezone especially since it dominates the very common Latios, Weavile (can Roost off Brick Breaks all day), Mamoswine and Tyranitar.

 

[RaikouLover]

Not overspecialized at all. Shed Shell on Scizor is a wonderful idea since most people stopped trying to counter it with anything other than Magnezone. I've been using Bulky Swords Dance Scizor... rather than trapping Latias I just threaten the kill.

Originally Posted by Stellar
Mixed sets don't perform very well and are better left to Salamence.

Theorymon.

Originally Posted by Gaborik
Blah blah blah I theorymon a lot and use stats and numbers to back it up without actually showing or giving an example of a log or situation as to why it is better - it is better on paper so it must be true! From my experience on the ladder Salamence still is better on most levels. Latios can set up with more resistances?

I specifically said Salamence is better on paper! but in practice from using a Dragon Dance / Draco Meteor / Outrage / Earthquake set, I found Latios to be more effective because of its accessability and the pokemon that switch in on it. Salamence is met with Bronzong and Bulky Waters, Latios is met with Tyranitar and Blissey, both of whom it OHKOs w/ SR at +1.

Originally Posted by Gaborik
Dragon attacks everywhere, steel types everywhere. Just throwing out your steel types to take oncoming dragon attacks is dangerous as you need HP investments to actually stand up to some of the attacks SpecsLatios can throw at you. I still see a metagame stuck in 2 steels minimum on each team, with more than likely 2 dragons added to the team as well. There seems to be a distinct lack of variety so far. It is kind of boring to keep seeing: Flygon, Salamence, Latios, Kingdra on the dragon side - Metagross, Scizor, Heatran on the steel side, and then some tossed in Blissey, Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Jolteon, Gyarados, and some other generals I am forgetting. I haven't seen much of any presence of stall at all in my battles.

I agree with all of this... and its kind of sad that I finally see what TAY was talking about. It wasn't nearly as pronounced with Latias IMO, mainy because she isn't as much of a threat offensively, but I've seen Magnezone every battle, Scizor every battle, one steel as death fodder, and Latios + Salamence / Kingdra. What the fuck... I hate the Suspect ladder.

Originally Posted by Gaborik
The Latios I fear the most would be the Specs or Life Orb types. The DD one just doesn't quite get it done when Salamence does it better.

This is the worst logic I've ever heard. How does the effectiveness of Salamence have anything to do with Latios? That's like saying Substitute + Calm Mind anything doesn't "get it done" because of Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi

 

[JLei2k]

Hmmm SD Scizor with Shed Shell. Gotta try that. I just like being able to bluff Choice Band. Since Uber trapper has all the same moves except Roost over Superpower which you shouldn't randomly anyways and plays close to the the same way until it has reason to Roost or Pursuit people just assume it's another Choice Bander and get a false sense of security.

Yep Suspect is basically Kingdra, Salamence, Latios, Scizor, Magnezone....Steel support/ Stealth Rock (Heatran, Metagross, Jirachi, Bronzong), Tyranitar and some Weavile.

 

[Tangerine]

hey RaikouLover please stop accusing people of theorymon. Please learn to distinguish opinion from theorymon since you seem to have trouble with it!

thanks

 

[panamaxis]

The suspect ladder is absolutely dominated by dragon and steel types. The standard team on suspect looks like Tay's triple dragon triple steel. This shift was not as pronounced when latias was tested, but the majority of teams consist of dragon and steel types.

Also, magnezone is in like every battle on suspect.

 

[Veedrock]

I understand the reason of magnezone, since usually called Lati@s counters are steel type pokemons, magnezone can give you a victory.

Not even steels appreciate coming in on Latios. 50% damage to Metagross with Draco Meteor is nuts.


Anyways, I'm really starting to dislike Latios. It hits too damn hard. The only thing that can reliably come in is Blissey, and if I have to have Blissey on my team, that's not helping Latios' case. Scizor can come in to some degree, but it needs to invest for that, only to be done in by HP Fire if it's carried. Latios can be invested to take regularly effective special hits (mine isn't even 2HKO'd by Bullet Punch from CB Scizor). If we were forced to vote right now, I'd have to go with my gut reaction right here and go with uber.

EDIT: I'll elaborate a bit further. One of the three reasons I'm not a fan of ubers is because early game you usually have to pick something to take a devastating blow. An example would be Kyogre's Water Spout. Something has to cushion that blow, and if it doesn't force a switch, you generally sacrifice it only to get a free switch to something that CAN do something back, but couldn't take the initial blow. Latios is doing that to the standard game to an extent and I don't like it.

 

[blasphemy1]

Well my team isn't specialized like some people have been trying, as my only steel type is Metagross or Heatran, depending on which I feel is the better lead at the time. It seems like Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon + CB Heracross have been wrecking most of the Latios people have been using, whether it be Life Orb or Dragon Dance. I think the best dragon ATM is Flygon, taking pretty much nothing from residual damage and revenge killing the other dragons. My team is: Flygon, Heatran/Metagross, Latios, Magnezone, Rotom-W, and Heracross. It seems to work extremely well, since Scizor = free switchin for Rotom-W, and this leaves my opponent thinking he is my steel killer, until they find out I have Magnezone waiting. This combination is extremely useful for all of those damn 3 steel teams.

BTW, Veedrock, what is wrong with having to let something die to find out a moveset? Does Salamence not do that now? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't the best for the metagame.

Anyways, I personally have not had any trouble with Latios, and when I win my games(I am 16-5 so far), I have used Latios once, and in that one time it died anyways. Latios is really not that powerful, you just have to predict around it a bit. Keep in mind that random shit like Calm Empoleon w/Surf, Roar, Rest, and Sleep Talk are 100% counters to special variants, phazing away any boosts and resting off the damage. A Choice Specs Modest Latios's Draco Meteor does 36.29%-42.47% to 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Empoleon. Seeing that, mixed variants have 4 moveslot syndrome, so you can just send in your steel to estimate their EV spread and figure out if they have physical attacks.

Overall, I think Latios is extremely easy to handle, and I would actually say that Latias performs better overall in the OU metagame, whether it be support or a Calm Mind set. The one thing Latios has going for it is higher attack, but it can't beat Blissey 100% of the time meanwhile Latias can through either Refresh, Psycho Shift, or Safeguard. Latios can do these to, but he takes far too much from Bullet Punches and he doesn't enjoy eating special attacks without a boost.

 

[X-Act]

I also think people who use this method to vote should be unable to do so. Due to the fact it is so hard to beat and also when using it you do not get a comprehensive grasp of the impact of latios. This is compounded by the fact people are merely using the team so they can vote what they want without even doing the test.
Discuss.

If these people use this strategy well, that tells you something about Latios right? Why wouldn't they be able to vote?

 

[Lady Platina]

I am finding Dual Screen Latios with Memento setting up Gliscor for BP reminiscent of the days of DS Deoxys-E in its difficulty in handling it.