Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[capefeather]

Alex_Dino, your argument right now is a fallacy of slippery slope. Anyone who's ever used a weather team would see the fallacy right away. Notice how Drought and Drizzle are considered Uber by themselves, but Rain Dance and Sunny Day are not? And what about Dragonite, Kingdra and Flygon? None of them are as good at what Salamence does as Salamence is. They all have huge flaws that Salamence doesn't. Dragonite and Kingdra lack speed, and Flygon lacks boosting moves. To suggest that they'd necessarily impact the metagame as much as Salamence does seems rather silly to me.

 

[Naxte]

then its not a good team and should be adjusted accordingly?

...Did you not read what I said? If no actual solid counter exists, it doesn't matter how good the team is. No amount of adjusting will change the fact that it still comes down to prediction.

So if there's no pure counter to a Pokemon its should be tested?

No. If there's no way to reliably beat even a known set other than through being a better predicter/revenge killing, then it's a sign that the Pokemon may be a suspect. In other words, if a Pokemon can beat any Pokemon on your team with just one set if you don't predict right and make just the right move, then it quite possibly fulfills the Offensive Criteria and should be tested.

Scizor- U-Turns all the time, no counter because of that, SUSPECT

U-turn doesn't allow Scizor itself to beat much of anything. It's just switching to another Pokemon to handle the threat it's faced with. It doesn't change the fact that Scizor itself couldn't beat the threat it was faced with and needed to switch via U-turn and thus isn't a suspect.

In other words, U-turn being on or being absent on a Scizor set doesn't change the fact that the same Pokemon still handle it, so it doesn't affect whehter it's a suspect or not.

Lucario- Too versatile, doesn't use SD all the time, SUSPECT

It's versatile, but regardless of that, no matter what it's set is, short of throwing on a Scarf (and if it does, then that set has it's own problems), it ain't beating Gliscor. Unlike Mence, if you know the set, this thing's beatable.

Infernape- could be SD, could be Mixed, could be CB, can do a hell of a lot of things, SUSPECT

Same as above. Each set has it's own counters and things that stop it cold. With Mence though, even if you know the set, DD/Outrage/EQ/FB @ Life Orb could still beat you. Infernape has to rely on different sets to beat different Pokemon, so I don't feel it to be a suspect. Mence however only needs one to take out poentially anything in OU, and that's why I feel it to be a suspect.

See where I'm getting?

Not really, and it's besides the point anyway. Whether those Pokemon actually do deserve a test or not does not affect whether or not Mence deserves one.

Furthermore, let's take a look at what made Garchomp a suspect and eventually Uber- there had to be one of very few certain Pokemon on a team just to be sure that Garchomp was taken out. It couldn't be any other Pokemon. I don't see that issue for Mence, (again see plethora of options above) since it has several answers that can take it down.

To me, I see a very similar situation. I mean, Scizor or Scarftran can try coming in on what they believe to be a predictable DD, but end up being destroyed by Fire Blast/EQ respectively. If you predicted right, they may have worked against Mence, but it's basically a gamble. And just like with Garchomp, Mence does that with only one set. I'm not talking about a variety of sets like Lucario or Ape need to pick off various Pokemon, but just one set.

@Alex_Dino: I don't agree with the notion, because of what I've already mentioned:

Obviously though, that's not a good mindset to go with. If Pokemon are broken, they should be banned, regardless of the effect that has on other Pokemon. A stable metagame will be reached, and will definitely be reached before getting down to just Caterpie andWeedle or whatever.

And besides, we don't even know what will happen with Mence gone. It's quite possible that there won't be any new suspects at all, and the metagame will be healthier for it. That's why we're just talking about atestright now. We aren't going to just jump right into banning it. That of course wouldn't be a wise move. Thus, the suspect test process. Until we do a test, we don't know anything either way about the resulting metagame. All we have is theorymon, and that doesn't get anyone anywhere

We haven't even seen what these meta-games are like yet. How can you be so sure that there would be anything at all that we would find ban-worthy by Salamance's removal? It's quite possible we won't. Thus, we shouldn't be concerned by some future maybes for now, and should focus just on Salamance.

If Salamance is banned, and we do wind up somehow banning 100 Pokemon by continuing to go down that road, then we'll cross that road before we come to it, and it will be done long before 100 Pokemon are actually banned. After all, we can always return to "default" on this if need be. However, for now, Salamance is the focus, and we should judge it on its own merits: if it breaks one of the three characteristics, ban it, and if not, leave it. Keeping it OU even if it is broken just on some slippery slope of a maybe on what could happen if we don't, and just having to "deal" with a broken suspect due to those maybes isn't something I can find myself agreeing with, though.

EDIT:

Let's see... Steels can switch in safely on Outrage, Heatran on Fire Blast, Latias on EQ or Fire Blast or Brick Break/Roost, etc. Nothing else should switch in on Mence because it would be idiotic to do so

Problem is though, you can't be assured that that will be the move that they'll be switching in on (even if you're positive of the moveset, that one moveset, just like Chomp's SD/EQ/Outrage/FF, could still end up beating any of them), and thus none of them are reliable. They're all maybes at best, as you're relying on nothing more than a "maybe" for your entry-pass.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

Ok Objection, the only way to stop Salamence is by having a very bulky Pokemon that can survive one of its nuclear bomb hits, and the ones that can sometimes don't even carry a move to stop Salamence. Hippowdown rarely carries Ice Fang, they can just Roar. Suicune is probably the best answer to Salamence, but you need helluva investment in Def to stop it. Salamence is prone to revenge killing, but the shit that revenge kill it is easily trapped as Blue Tornado stated (thanks btw you smart smart boy). Any smart player probably also has something like Dragonite to pair beside it to lure in Scizor, only to get trapped, then get swept by Salamence.

 

[Deaga]

I agree with Ulevo. You can't compare how good a Pokémon is by comparing it to another Pokémon. It's like stating that Butterfree should be declared OU because it's better than Caterpie. And then you go into the whole definition of what "better" is.

Yes, because the OverUSED tier is defined by what one considers good, and not by the usage of said Pokémon.

Thank you for pointing this out, cantab, as this is exactly what I'm getting at. In Ubers Rayquaza easily outclasses Salamence. That is why Rayquaza is in Ubers and Salamence is in OU, and also why Salamence's usage is not as much as Rayquaza's. In essence, Salamence filled the gap Rayquaza left behind.

What gap? Are you suggesting that, if Salamence did not exist, Rayquaza would be OU? lol

Also, be aware that a Pokémon's perfomance in ubers is NOT relevant to its OU or Uber status, but only its usage in OU. Ho-oh was nearly never used in Ubers before HGSS gave it Brave Bird and yet, it was still uber. That was because even it was worthless in Ubers, it was too good for OU.

 

[JarardoMartino]

ok, i think i'm done in this thread cause i realized I never use salamence in the first place so I won't be heartbroken by any result that takes place.

I think it should just go by the NIKE's philosophy:
Is Salamence considered a suspect?
Then Just Test It!
So we can all just get this whole thing over with.

 

[cantab]

Same as above. Each set has it's own counters and things that stop it cold. With Mence though, even if you know the set, DD/Outrage/EQ/FB @ Life Orb could still beat you. Infernape has to rely on different sets to beat different Pokemon, so I don't feel it to be a suspect. Mence however only needs one to take out poentially anything in OU, and that's why I feel it to be a suspect.

Someone in Upsetting the Metagame mentioned Rhyperior in the sand counters standard DDMence and MixMence, taking the Draco Meteor+Outrage or the +1 Outrage and OHKOing with Avalanche. (EQ is actually a little weaker than Outrage thanks to solid rock)
So those Mence sets have a solid counter. Of course Mence can run Hydro Pump to easily destroy Rhyperior. But assuming the damage calcs haven't be messed up, it would seem untrue that those Mence sets can beat anything. And any set with Hydro Pump is probably going to find itself stopped by something else.

 

[capefeather]

To be fair, there's a gamble with almost all the top OU Pokémon. Heatran might switch into EQ? Gliscor might switch into Lucario's Ice Punch. Nonetheless, it could be argued that Lucario is gambling more than Salamence is by attacking off the bat.

 

[cantab]

Something has just occurred to me actually. It's all very well to say "Salamence's counters only work with correct prediction", but we can turn the argument the other way around. In order for Salamence to beat its counters, it has to predict correctly. If Salamence Draco Meteors or Outrages a steel switch-in, it's countered. If it Dragon Dances on an Ice Sharder, it's countered. Prediction works both ways.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

...Did you not read what I said? If no actual solid counter exists, it doesn't matter how good the team is. No amount of adjusting will change the fact that it still comes down to prediction.
You still clearly haven't read my post because there is such thing as revenge killing?Its not always prediction as well (see further below)

No. If there's no way to reliably beat even a known set other than through being a better predicter/revenge killing, then it's a sign that the Pokemon may be a suspect. In other words, if a Pokemon can beat any Pokemon on your team with just one set if you don't predict right and make just the right move, then it quite possibly fulfills the Offensive Criteria and should be tested.
There is a known way to beat the DD Mence set. Haven't you heard of Pory2? Bronzong? And Once Salamence starts Outraging, steel types?

U-turn doesn't allow Scizor itself to beat much of anything. It's just switching to another Pokemon to handle the threat it's faced with. It doesn't change the fact that Scizor itself couldn't beat the threat it was faced with and needed to switch via U-turn and thus isn't a suspect.

In other words, U-turn being on or being absent on a Scizor set doesn't change the fact that the same Pokemon still handle it, so it doesn't affect whehter it's a suspect or not.

It's versatile, but regardless of that, no matter what it's set is, short of throwing on a Scarf (and if it does, then that set has it's own problems), it ain't beating Gliscor. Unlike Mence, if you know the set, this thing's beatable.

Same as above. Each set has it's own counters and things that stop it cold. With Mence though, even if you know the set, DD/Outrage/EQ/FB @ Life Orb could still beat you. Infernape has to rely on different sets to beat different Pokemon, so I don't feel it to be a suspect. Mence however only needs one to take out poentially anything in OU, and that's why I feel it to be a suspect.

Not really, and it's besides the point anyway. Whether those Pokemon actually do deserve a test or not does not affect whether or not Mence deserves one.
You didn't get it :/ I was making an example of what your logic was suggesting.

To me, I see a very similar situation. I mean, Scizor or Scarftran can try coming in on what they believe to be a predictable DD, but end up being destroyed by Fire Blast/EQ respectively. If you predicted right, they may have worked against Mence, but it's basically a gamble. And just like with Garchomp, Mence does that with only one set. I'm not talking about a variety of sets like Lucario or Ape need to pick off various Pokemon, but just one set.
But Garchomp also did not have a weak to SR which Mence does and Chomp has a boost from SS. I was not using purely Garchomp as an example, just the reasons as to why he was moved- overcentralization. Mence does not overcentralize.

EDIT:

Problem is though, you can't be assured that that will be the move that they'll be switching in on (even if you're positive of the moveset, that one moveset, just like Chomp's SD/EQ/Outrage/FF, could still end up beating any of them), and thus none of them are reliable. They're all maybes at best, as you're relying on nothing more than a "maybe" for your entry-pass.
With Outrage, you can be assured if its already used it. With Fire Blast/ Brick Break, there's something that you can use called a lure. Works quite well in the current metagame actually.

 

[ultimifier]

the thing is that Salamence DOES NOT have to predict correctly. By blindly using draco meteor followed by earthquake, outrage, or fire blast, every pokemon in OU is 1/2HKOd bar some random cresselias or very bulky suicunes. Also blidnly using fire blast isn't even that bad as you will most likely do enough damage that draco meteor can KO the next turn.

 

[Alex_Dino]

I apologize, as my logic is failing me. I seemed to be looking ahead and assuming that Salemence would be banned. I'll state my opinion clearly:

Salamence should not be Uber, however, I agree that testing should commence (after the Suspect Clauses, of course).

However I will state a couple rebuttals:

Yes, because the OverUSED tier is defined by what one considers good, and not by the usage of said Pokémon.

Is this not how we define Uber Pokémon, by how good it is? Technically speaking, an Uber is "if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort," and "if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokémon to sweep," quoting the Offensive and Support characteristics respectively. However, what allows a Pokémon to sweep though an entire team? What allows a Pokémon to set up consistently which makes things easier for others? This is determined by a variety of factors, such as Base Stats, typing, movepool, ability, and other things. For example, you wouldn't use a Dratini over a Dragonite because a Dratini has inferior stats, ability, and movepool. In other words, usage is directly proportional to these characteristics. If someone thinks a Pokémon is good, his/her usage of that specific Pokémon will go up. This has a similar effect overall. What SHOULD be done is a mathematical function that would take in all accounts of these specific characteristics in order to finally determine, unambiguously, who should be where.

What gap? Are you suggesting that, if Salamence did not exist, Rayquaza would be OU? lol

Of course not. What I AM pointing out is the fact that prior to Rayquaza's banning, it was probably used in place of Salamence. I wasn't here during that time, so quote me wrong if you must. But even now people consider Salamence as a 'mini-Rayquaza'. So why should this Pokémon be placed on the same tier as the Pokémon who outclasses it?

Also, be aware that a Pokémon's perfomance in ubers is NOT relevant to its OU or Uber status, but only its usage in OU. Ho-oh was nearly never used in Ubers before HGSS gave it Brave Bird and yet, it was still uber. That was because even it was worthless in Ubers, it was too good for OU.

This is where the worst part of the Ubers tier. Why put something in Ubers if it can't compete? If pre-HGSS Ho-oh was never used in Ubers yet was too much for OU, then what point is there to use it at all? This is directly opposite the idea of a "perfectly balanced" metagame of which we all strive for so much. The same thing may happen with Salamence.

And with that, I'll go back to lurking on this thread, as I need to get pics for the In-Game Expansion project.

 

[cantab]

This is where the worst part of the Ubers tier. Why put something in Ubers if it can't compete? If pre-HGSS Ho-oh was never used in Ubers yet was too much for OU, then what point is there to use it at all? This is directly opposite the idea of a "perfectly balanced" metagame of which we all strive for so much. The same thing may happen with Salamence

Ubers isn't meant to be balanced - because it is the tier where everything is allowed.
OU, UU, and NU are balanced by us.
Thus, an Uber having low usage, while it may be an INDICATION it is OU, does not mean it is automatically OU or even a suspect. Manaphy and Deoxys-D are examples of current Ubers that may in fact not be overpowering in OU. Deoxys-N is an Uber that will never ever ever be in OU, regardless of the fact it's hardly ever used in Ubers.

 

[deluge]

This is where the worst part of the Ubers tier. Why put something in Ubers if it can't compete? If pre-HGSS Ho-oh was never used in Ubers yet was too much for OU, then what point is there to use it at all? This is directly opposite the idea of a "perfectly balanced" metagame of which we all strive for so much. The same thing may happen with Salamence.

Ubers has the potential to become a kind of BL for a ton of Pokemon which is what I hate.
They are obviously outclassed in the Ubers banlist whereas they have been voted out of OU.

Some time after the first Garchomp Uber result I stated that this entire process is going to become a time consuming and ultimately limiting runaway beast.
Within myself, I started to step away from that view as things were beginning to stabilize but now I firmly believe my initial instincts were correct.

Salamence would not even be as threatening if Jolly Garchomp were still in the tier. We've created a precedent that has the potential to result in progressive denudation of OU.
This is quite a natural outcome because removal of threats has the unintended cosequence of creating threats (opportunistically) and apex threats are apparently 'suspect'.
Furthermore, for every apex threat that is peeled off, the threshold for suspect consideration and Uber status is lowered by the precedent set.

To the extent that one can be annoyed by a trivial pursuit, I'm disgusted.
I predict Scizor as the next suspect (Support) and if it ever goes, Tyranitar (Offense).
And if suspects don't leave time was only wasted and unecessary uncertainty created.

With that, I retire from this place indefinitely.

 

[Deaga]

Is this not how we define Uber Pokémon, by how good it is? Technically speaking, an Uber is "if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort," and "if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokémon to sweep," quoting the Offensive and Support characteristics respectively. However, what allows a Pokémon to sweep though an entire team? What allows a Pokémon to set up consistently which makes things easier for others? This is determined by a variety of factors, such as Base Stats, typing, movepool, ability, and other things. For example, you wouldn't use a Dratini over a Dragonite because a Dratini has inferior stats, ability, and movepool. In other words, usage is directly proportional to these characteristics. If someone thinks a Pokémon is good, his/her usage of that specific Pokémon will go up. This has a similar effect overall. What SHOULD be done is a mathematical function that would take in all accounts of these specific characteristics in order to finally determine, unambiguously, who should be where.

Well, yes, in this case you're mostly right; Ubers is determined by how "good" something is. It was just an wrong example you gave, with Butterfree in the OU tier. However, usage and power are not always completely related: most good players agree that Electivire isn't very good, and yet it's in OU for some reason.

Of course not. What I AM pointing out is the fact that prior to Rayquaza's banning, it was probably used in place of Salamence. I wasn't here during that time, so quote me wrong if you must. But even now people consider Salamence as a 'mini-Rayquaza'. So why should this Pokémon be placed on the same tier as the Pokémon who outclasses it?

It was never unbanned. Ever.

This is where the worst part of the Ubers tier. Why put something in Ubers if it can't compete? If pre-HGSS Ho-oh was never used in Ubers yet was too much for OU, then what point is there to use it at all? This is directly opposite the idea of a "perfectly balanced" metagame of which we all strive for so much. The same thing may happen with Salamence.

Ubers isn't a real metagame. It's a Ban list for OU. Whatever is too strong for OU gets kicked out of OU and goes into ubers. The said pokémon's performance in Uber says nothing about wether it's broken in OU or not and, therefore, is irrelevant.

 

[Alex_Dino]

Ubers isn't meant to be balanced - because it is the tier where everything is allowed.
OU, UU, and NU are balanced by us.
Thus, an Uber having low usage, while it may be an INDICATION it is OU, does not mean it is automatically OU or even a suspect. Manaphy and Deoxys-D are examples of current Ubers that may in fact not be overpowering in OU. Deoxys-N is an Uber that will never ever ever be in OU, regardless of the fact it's hardly ever used in Ubers.

I do realize this, but in all reality, Ubers should only contain the best of the best, not the best of the best, and the others who are too good for regular play, but not as good as the best of the best. I would say to propose a tier for these "Island of Misfit Ubers", but due to a majority of factors (mostly regarding my post count and badge-less profile), this would be put aside very quickly. And in all reality, we need to have a solid list of Pokémon who are deemed Uber before this proposed idea could even take shape. Which is exactly what this thread is about.

So yes, as TAY has said, let's testing. ('Course with the Policy Reviewers approval, and after Suspect Clause testing is over.)

 

[IcyMan28]

Let's try not to compare Salamence to pokemon that are already Uber - not only does it slant the argument in one direction, but it assumes that the two metagames are on an equal level. They are not.

Here's what differentiates Salamence from Lucario, Infernape, Gyarados, etc, and involves both the offensive and support characteristics:

Salamence presents a much more immediate and powerful threat than do other OU sweepers.

Think about it - Salamence switches in, so what do you do? Unless you have an extremely healthy Suicune or Cresselia in your team, something is going down. The coverage and high base power of Salamence's moves can deal even with its counters. Should Lucario or Infernape switch in...you can bring in Gliscor or Vaporeon and feel pretty confident that it will be dealt with. Taking it a step further, removing Mence's checks is much simpler than removing Infernape's or Gyara's, meaning that what few checks remain can be destroyed by an equally effective alternative set.

This is what allows Salamence to tear holes in the opponents team - luring in those pokemon is easy, and Mence doesn't even have to use specialized lure sets. DD up, kill Swampert (the opponent will have no chioce but to sac it), and be revenged by Scizor. Magnezone traps and kills - DDTar is free to sweep.

 

[Alex_Dino]

It was never unbanned. Ever.

Thank you for clearing this up for me, as I wasn't there at the time. I now see why my logic would deem, well, illogical.

 

[skorpion123]

Any more Hard evidence on how Mix Mence or DD mence can "certainly" kill at least one pokemon ?

 

[Alex_Dino]

Let's try not to compare Salamence to pokemon that are already Uber - not only does it slant the argument in one direction, but it assumes that the two metagames are on an equal level. They are not.

Here's what differentiates Salamence from Lucario, Infernape, Gyarados, etc, and involves both the offensive and support characteristics:

Salamence presents a much more immediate and powerful threat than do other OU sweepers.

Think about it - Salamence switches in, so what do you do? Unless you have an extremely healthy Suicune or Cresselia in your team, something is going down. The coverage and high base power of Salamence's moves can deal even with its counters. Should Lucario or Infernape switch in...you can bring in Gliscor or Vaporeon and feel pretty confident that it will be dealt with. Taking it a step further, removing Mence's checks is much simpler than removing Infernape's or Gyara's, meaning that what few checks remain can be destroyed by an equally effective alternative set.

This is what allows Salamence to tear holes in the opponents team - luring in those pokemon is easy, and Mence doesn't even have to use specialized lure sets. DD up, kill Swampert (the opponent will have no chioce but to sac it), and be revenged by Scizor. Magnezone traps and kills - DDTar is free to sweep.

I'm all for the testing. Heck, ban it from OU if you must. But that's where the problem is. If you ban it from OU, it becomes useless in Ubers. That's not what Smogon intended. Yes, I know, Ubers is a banlist, but there are Pokémon within Ubers that can't begin to compete with other Uber Pokémon.

Personally, I like Salamence, I use it on my HO team. And yeah, you're probably right that it's Uber, because whenever I see something my team can't handle, barring obvious counters, I throw Salamence at it, and 90% of the time it takes it down. That alone says, wow, that thing is over-powered, because I can send it in and get something to faint 90% of the time.

What I don't like is the fact that when it will be (probably anyway) banned, it's going to get no usage, when there are obvious Pokémon that are better (Rayquaza). Again, that's not what Smogon is about. It's about trying to create a balanced overall metagame, and if that overall metagame has Pokémon that, although they can't go down a tier, they can't compete in the current tier that they are in, then that overall metagame has problems.

 

[MrIndigo]

Let's see... Steels can switch in safely on Outrage, Heatran on Fire Blast, Latias on EQ or Fire Blast or Brick Break/Roost, etc. Nothing else should switch in on Mence because it would be idiotic to do so

That's not what switching in safely means. You try to switch in Heatran on Fire Blast, and Salamence used Earthquake, oops, OHKO, you're down another pokemon. Latias comes in on EQ? Oops, that Outrage hurts. Scizor in on Outrage? Oh dear, you just got OHKOd by Fire Blast.

Nothing can come in safely = Nothing can come in without flipping a coin with how Salamence predicts, and if it guesses wrong it can't chase Mence out. The only safe switch-in is a Steel, on a locked-in Outrage (which still usually means you've lost at least one pokemon to Mence), which is why several Salamence users are now running Dragon Claw to prevent the lock-in and thus counter most of the standard foils.

 

[Quaily]

Any more Hard evidence on how Mix Mence or DD mence can "certainly" kill at least one pokemon ?

It's the variability that will cost you pokes. If you take a DDmence and have swampert switch into it swampert will win every single time. 252 hp/252 def relaxed pert only takes ~60% from a +1 outrage.

BUT if you take the same swampert and switch it into a mixmence swampert will lose every time to draco meteor+outrage/earthquake.

With both of these sets being highly used you are basically gambling your chances of countering mence with a swampert, and if it's the mixmence then you lose your swampert and need something like scizor to take down mence. Without swampert something like agiligross becomes that much more threatening after mence punches a hole in your team.

 

[skorpion123]

That's not what switching in safely means. You switch in Heatran on Fire Blast, and Salamence used Earthquake, oops, OHKO, you're down another pokemon.

Nothing can come in safely = Nothing can come in without flipping a coin with how Salamence predicts, and if it guesses wrong it can't chase Mence out.

Well if Salamence miss-predicted and used Fire Blast , Choice Scarf Heatran can switch to it and stop it.

Let's not use double standards here , SM would need prediction to get the KO against Heatran in that case and Heatran would need to predict when to switch.

The one who predicts is 1-0 in front.

Heatran may need prediction to beat Mence on the switch but isn't the same true for Mence and your member of your team ?

Say she uses Earthquake and you switch Choice scarf Flygon. (or max speed Flygon or even Latias if she did not use Outrage)


If a team has multiple members that can handle either of Salamence sets. And you don't fail at predicting. (Which may not be extremely hard to do , if let's say you have a steel against A mence that can use FB to kill it) Then you won't have a problem usually. (Though it is all dependent on the rest of your opponent's team as well.)

 

[MrIndigo]

I'm all for the testing. Heck, ban it from OU if you must. But that's where the problem is. If you ban it from OU, it becomes useless in Ubers. That's not what Smogon intended. Yes, I know, Ubers is a banlist, but there are Pokémon within Ubers that can't begin to compete with other Uber Pokémon.

Personally, I like Salamence, I use it on my HO team. And yeah, you're probably right that it's Uber, because whenever I see something my team can't handle, barring obvious counters, I throw Salamence at it, and 90% of the time it takes it down. That alone says, wow, that thing is over-powered, because I can send it in and get something to faint 90% of the time.

What I don't like is the fact that when it will be (probably anyway) banned, it's going to get no usage, when there are obvious Pokémon that are better (Rayquaza). Again, that's not what Smogon is about. It's about trying to create a balanced overall metagame, and if that overall metagame has Pokémon that, although they can't go down a tier, they can't compete in the current tier that they are in, then that overall metagame has problems.

This is a mistaken logic; the health of OU is independent of the health of Ubers. If something is a problem in OU, then it is irrelevant what strength it will be in Ubers.

A balanced overall metagame is meaningless; you are trying to have a balanced OU metagame, a balanced UU metagame, and a balanced UU metagame (there's not much you can do to balance Uber, by it's very definition).

Your personal aesthetic considerations about Salamence being suboptimal in Ubers is irrelevant (and to some extent, wrong; Salamence has started to see play in Ubers already, typically alongside Rayquaza).

 

[MrIndigo]

Well if Salamence miss-predicted and used Fire Blast , Choice Scarf Heatran can switch to it and stop it.

Let's not use double standards here , SM would need prediction to get the KO against Heatran in that case and Heatran would need to predict when to switch.

The one who predicts is 1-0 in front.

Heatran may need prediction to beat Mence on the switch but isn't the same true for Mence and your member of your team ?

Say she uses Earthquake and you switch Choice scarf Flygon. (or max speed Flygon or even Latias if she did not use Outrage)


If a team has multiple members that can handle either of Salamence sets. And you don't fail at predicting. (Which may not be extremely hard to do , if let's say you have a steel against A mence that can use FB to kill it) Then you won't have a problem usually. (Though it is all dependent on the rest of your opponent's team as well.)

And this is the point. The pokemon isn't considered a Suspect when it OHKOs everything that switches into it regardless of prediction; that's as good a contender as you can get for an immediate ban.

It is a suspect because your ONLY hope against it is to make a prediction guess (and typically it's a 1/3 chance in Salamence's favour, and the more of the team Salamence-user has seen, the further in Salamence's favour it gets) .

When you have to start dedicating multiple members of your team to countering the SAME pokemon, it's possible that the pokemon is too overpowered for the format; because it's not Your Team vs. Salamence, it's Your Team vs. Salamence + 5 other pokemon that can cover most of Salamence's counters.

 

[skorpion123]

It's the variability that will cost you pokes. If you take a DDmence and have swampert switch into it swampert will win every single time. 252 hp/252 def relaxed pert only takes ~60% from a +1 outrage.

BUT if you take the same swampert and switch it into a mixmence swampert will lose every time to draco meteor+outrage/earthquake.

With both of these sets being highly used you are basically gambling your chances of countering mence with a swampert, and if it's the mixmence then you lose your swampert and need something like scizor to take down mence. Without swampert something like agiligross becomes that much more threatening after mence punches a hole in your team.

Well yes. But Mix Mence can be "countered" as well. Though it is a more dangerous set.

A team may have "counters" for both. And it's a gamble for the opponent of Mence to see whether they guessed right. But one carries only one of the possible sets.

After that if they guessed wrong , they can adapt.

IMO between orb , Stealth rock , and possible sandstorm , Mence ( i am assuming either MixMence or DD mence) won't have many chances to switch in and out.

And since both Mence sets , their strongest move carries a drawback (reduced Sp Attack , can only use one attack) , it is not impossible to attempt of setting up (things such as spikes ) if you get the chance.

It's possible that by countering Mence you get free turns. Even if something is killed by it , you have learned it's moveset and you can attempt to take advantage of the disadvantages of it's attacks.

A compensation for it being unpredictable and extremely dangerous.

If you have to switch not once (to bring swampert) but twice to counter it (and you have to be able to predict correctly as well) , then so be it.

I don't think that it makes it uber. But i am also of the "keep as many things unbanned as possible camp".

Now if Mence is used at very late in the game , then things are differently and she icould be a more powerful force. (not a lot of switching can be done , counters are down. )