-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
359 Atk vs 166 Def & 281 HP (100 Base Power): 116 - 137 (41.28% - 48.75%)
Garchomp has a chance to 2HKO Sceptile with a Jolly EQ after SR, and pretty much guaranteed if Spikes/Sandstorm/TS is up too. If Garchomp is scarfed and there is a fair amount of residual damage lying around, Sceptile will not live.
Garchomp has a chance to 2HKO Sceptile with a Jolly EQ after SR, and pretty much guaranteed if Spikes/Sandstorm/TS is up too. If Garchomp is scarfed and there is a fair amount of residual damage lying around, Sceptile will not live.
the majority of even the scarfChomp variants run jolly.
I wouldn't say "only" trying to outrun other Chomps though as there are A LOT of them (79% usage) and most of them go for max speed jolly.
(80%+ of teh Garchomps run jolly and ~97& garchomps are maxed speed)
I would say it's worth it or at least many players would feel that they are forced to do so as well.
My point in saying Jolly ScarfChomp was that even a Jolly ScarfChomp can 2HKO Sceptile with the proper hazards. If its Adamant, then its guaranteed 2HKO on Sceptile, and you might even OHKO without SR.
Yeah, I wouldn't bring up Specs Sceptile threatening out Chomp, when Specs Latias does the exact same thing, while not caring about Earthquake or Fire Fang much at all and simply having better overall options, coverage, and some extra power.
And yeah, people are running Jolly Chomps, not Adamant, especially when it comes to Scarf Chomp.
I said this earlier in the thread, but Spikes and Skarmory usage are still abnormally high to stop Garchomp, and Spikes also put the pain on Manaphy. I have seen a lot of Rapid Spin Starmie usage lately though, so this may change.
So it seems everyone is just talking about Chomp here for the most part though. Well we are pretty much 95% sure that Latias is sticking to OU, but I feel that if Chomp goes uber this round, Manaphy (assuming we end up testing it another round) will have a lot more potential to appear to be uber. Manaphy is severely hindered in this current Suspect Metagame where Latias and Garchomp outrun it and can easily remove around 45% health from an offensive Manaphy. Latias's T-bolt (especially Specs) annilates it. (though locking yourself in an electric attack is basically saying HI GARCHOMP).
And defensive varients can't get it going sometimes or if an opponent catches on they can send in the common Skarm to phase it before many CMs are gathered. Defensive Manaphy also can't switch into and revenge as many things, like weakened Rotoms that invest in speed and Zapdos.
Basically, In the current state of the suspect Metagame, Manaphy definitely appears to be OU to me. However if we were to take Chomp out of the picture, it would definitely be far more useful, but Latias is still slightly weakening its power (I believe when Mana was tested alone, Latias was banned from Suspect, so Latias could make a small key difference in Manaphys barrier between Uber and OU). Manaphy's true power is unknown in a Garchomp centralized metagame.
And yeah, people are running Jolly Chomps, not Adamant, especially when it comes to Scarf Chomp.
I said this earlier in the thread, but Spikes and Skarmory usage are still abnormally high to stop Garchomp, and Spikes also put the pain on Manaphy. I have seen a lot of Rapid Spin Starmie usage lately though, so this may change.
So it seems everyone is just talking about Chomp here for the most part though. Well we are pretty much 95% sure that Latias is sticking to OU, but I feel that if Chomp goes uber this round, Manaphy (assuming we end up testing it another round) will have a lot more potential to appear to be uber. Manaphy is severely hindered in this current Suspect Metagame where Latias and Garchomp outrun it and can easily remove around 45% health from an offensive Manaphy. Latias's T-bolt (especially Specs) annilates it. (though locking yourself in an electric attack is basically saying HI GARCHOMP).
And defensive varients can't get it going sometimes or if an opponent catches on they can send in the common Skarm to phase it before many CMs are gathered. Defensive Manaphy also can't switch into and revenge as many things, like weakened Rotoms that invest in speed and Zapdos.
Basically, In the current state of the suspect Metagame, Manaphy definitely appears to be OU to me. However if we were to take Chomp out of the picture, it would definitely be far more useful, but Latias is still slightly weakening its power (I believe when Mana was tested alone, Latias was banned from Suspect, so Latias could make a small key difference in Manaphys barrier between Uber and OU). Manaphy's true power is unknown in a Garchomp centralized metagame.
Can someone tell me when this testing ends and the voting for Stage 3.2 will begin? This thread's timestamp said it was posted October 12, so a month from then would be November 12, but I don't know if you started the clock when this thread was posted.
Also, going a long with my last question, is it too late to start trying to get voting rights in this test?
Also, going a long with my last question, is it too late to start trying to get voting rights in this test?
Nobody knows the exact date as to when the votings will take place. However, it should be around this time as you said. Oh and I would say it's a little too late to start playing on suspects. Unless of course you play 24/7 until that time (or at least excessively lol) of voting. Meh I'd say just sit back and enjoy the voting process lol.
Yeah it's awesome but it won't be able to switch into +2 Ourtage or Fire Fang as it OHKO (evren with max HP and +natured defense :()
But yeah outspeeding and being a check is definitely cool and well it's a cool poke XD
well it's really the 100 deviation part that matters and you playing a lot...even if your rating isn't too good you could make it but yeah iono who knows it might be the last time to try garchomp in OU-like meta for a while (well at least in smogon) so it might be worthwhile :D
Well, does anyone know what the "cap" for voting rights is? (in numbers?). I am reffering to the number that you get after applying all of the SEXP and multiplying it with the rating (that is how it was in stage 3, part one, and I think it's like that too now if I'm not mistaken). Do you need to get to a certian number to have voting rights? Or does it go by remaining places, and as such the top users in ranking will have voting rights? If there is such a number - what is it?
More playing Suspect and less asking questions about the exact numbers you need to qualify for voting. ;/
Garchomp isn't the only pokémon you might outspeed with a +Speed nature. Let's not forget Latias falls in that 300-328 Speed range, not to mention Infernape, Gengar, and the other Base 90-100 Speed pokémon who might also be running +Speed. Most people do run that extra Speed for this very reason, to avoid getting outsped by its fellow "fast" pokémon. Some people still choose to opt out of the Speed game though, especially with fast Scarfers who won't be beat by anything lacking its own Scarf anyway, and that's who you can actually beat with that extra Speed.
Garchomp isn't the only pokémon you might outspeed with a +Speed nature. Let's not forget Latias falls in that 300-328 Speed range, not to mention Infernape, Gengar, and the other Base 90-100 Speed pokémon who might also be running +Speed. Most people do run that extra Speed for this very reason, to avoid getting outsped by its fellow "fast" pokémon. Some people still choose to opt out of the Speed game though, especially with fast Scarfers who won't be beat by anything lacking its own Scarf anyway, and that's who you can actually beat with that extra Speed.
I've have been using an all-out offensive manaphy and it is quite nice.
I have given it tg, surg, ice beam, and hp-electric to deal some massive damage.
I have been running a balanced team (like the majority of the ladder players as it seems).
I've been using TGManaphy, SDHabanChomp, SpDefSkarm (I love this variant actaully, it's ridiculous), WishBliss (though I also like CurseCradily as well...it's actually quite effective), and two other pokies (gyara, celetran, cbscizor, latias, etc). It's not bad though i have been experimenting with the other two slots lol.
as my sig says, so far those are my thoughts.
I have given it tg, surg, ice beam, and hp-electric to deal some massive damage.
I have been running a balanced team (like the majority of the ladder players as it seems).
I've been using TGManaphy, SDHabanChomp, SpDefSkarm (I love this variant actaully, it's ridiculous), WishBliss (though I also like CurseCradily as well...it's actually quite effective), and two other pokies (gyara, celetran, cbscizor, latias, etc). It's not bad though i have been experimenting with the other two slots lol.
as my sig says, so far those are my thoughts.
A Timid Choice Specs Sceptile can OHKO Garchomp (barring SV miss), but it using it wise? It is very easy to punish Leaf Storm, and the move has fairly poor coverage overall. Dormin undoubtedly knew what he was doing, but the metagame wasn't as Dragon/Steel-oriented back then as it is now, leading me to doubt the efficacy of the strategy.
It wasn't his Garchomp counter or anything, he just knew it was a check for emergencies to just plow through chomp with brute power if needed... screw Yache's and Habans lol. That's all I was mentioning. There are pokemon fast and strong enough to outright demolish Garchomp with Specs regadless of that damn Yache Berry. I saw someone once go as far as to use Choice Scarfed Hyper Beam on a Porygon-Z to revenge chomp, lmao
EDIT: Didn't get to throw my piece in about chomp. I was MIA so I won't be voting, but I've been playing with chomp since the dawn of time, and about 15 or so recent battles.
Chomp is OU IMO I've been saying it for years. Yache/Haban Chomp isn't even the best variant... Choice Chomps are so rediculously easy to use those are the ones that should be debated. Dragon / Ground... you literally pick Dragon move if they have a flier, or Ground move if their fliers are gone, its just that simple and takes no thought.
As for Yache / Haban Chomp: Its pretty simple. You have several options to counter this thing. After reading pages and pages of posts, I'm directing this to you. So here are idiot-free steps to countering Swords Dance Chomps:
To counter Chomp:
On the Swords Dance, your going to want to switch to something bulky enough to not be OHKOed, preferably a levitator so you don't risk switching into an Earthquake. Chomp will only set up on two occasions: Something slower is out that is threatened by Earthquake, or something slower is out that most likely lacks an Ice Move, a Dragon Move, or Explosion! So here are some 1st turn candidates to switch in:
Gyarados
Cresselia
Swampert
Suicune
Vaporeon
Skarmory
Bronzong
Zapdos
Rotom
Gliscor
Hippowdon
Donphan
I'm sure there are more if you are creative, but you get the idea. All of these pokemon coincidently can pack a move to seriously damage Garchomp enough to knock it out, or break the Yache Berry (Haban varients get OHKOed). All of these pokemon can find their way onto a stall team or defensive team quite easily...
Now, Chomp should hover around 30-60% health depending on how strong your Ice Move was, and all that is required now is a pokemon with greater than 333 Speed, and enough power to cause that much damage. If you can't find a pokemon to do that, you need some help with this game. But I'll be generous and give you a few ideas:
Mismagius
Infernape
Gengar
Starmie
Raikou
Jolteon
Alakazaam
Sceptile
Crobat
Choice Scarfed threats.
Priority threats: Lucario, Scizor, Arcanine
Bam.. chomp is gone. All of these pokemon are commonly found on offensive teams. I've never heard of any heavy offensive team complaining about Garchomp.. because they don't really care and he has no time to set-up. It's the Scarfchomp that wrecks them (which is the best varient and any skilled battler will attest to that).
So what makes this strategy any different from when you first encounter a Salamence?
"Salamence is susceptible to priority!" Chomp isn't? Both weak to Ice Shard. Sure, mence takes more from Bullet Punch, but if your initial Ice Beamer is strong enough that is a moot point since chomp is going to take a lot from Ice Beam to begin with. In fact, chomp is taking a minimum of 41% from a 220 Special Attack Ice Beam from Swampert, which leaves him with at most 52% health.
"I can switch out Garchomp!" Good luck getting another Swords Dance with only 40% health left when you come back in as your even more susceptible to revenge killing.
"Garchomp can 2HKO every pokemon in the game." What is different from this than Mixmence, who needs NO set-up to do the same thing?
"revenge killing is not a viable tactic!" We clearly need to ban Dragon Dance Salamence then...
"Why should I sack a pokemon to counter Garchomp?" Why should you sack your Porygon2 to a Salamence's Draco Meteor? Or your Gliscor to a SpecsLuke's Hidden Power Ice?
I can go on and on for days. But for shits and giggles, I remember watching bologo countering Garchomp with freaking Jumpluff encoring, knowing that the only way chomp could beat pluff would be Outraging (Dragon Claw isn't a OHKO) on the switch in..
EDIT: Didn't get to throw my piece in about chomp. I was MIA so I won't be voting, but I've been playing with chomp since the dawn of time, and about 15 or so recent battles.
Chomp is OU IMO I've been saying it for years. Yache/Haban Chomp isn't even the best variant... Choice Chomps are so rediculously easy to use those are the ones that should be debated. Dragon / Ground... you literally pick Dragon move if they have a flier, or Ground move if their fliers are gone, its just that simple and takes no thought.
As for Yache / Haban Chomp: Its pretty simple. You have several options to counter this thing. After reading pages and pages of posts, I'm directing this to you. So here are idiot-free steps to countering Swords Dance Chomps:
To counter Chomp:
On the Swords Dance, your going to want to switch to something bulky enough to not be OHKOed, preferably a levitator so you don't risk switching into an Earthquake. Chomp will only set up on two occasions: Something slower is out that is threatened by Earthquake, or something slower is out that most likely lacks an Ice Move, a Dragon Move, or Explosion! So here are some 1st turn candidates to switch in:
Gyarados
Cresselia
Swampert
Suicune
Vaporeon
Skarmory
Bronzong
Zapdos
Rotom
Gliscor
Hippowdon
Donphan
I'm sure there are more if you are creative, but you get the idea. All of these pokemon coincidently can pack a move to seriously damage Garchomp enough to knock it out, or break the Yache Berry (Haban varients get OHKOed). All of these pokemon can find their way onto a stall team or defensive team quite easily...
Now, Chomp should hover around 30-60% health depending on how strong your Ice Move was, and all that is required now is a pokemon with greater than 333 Speed, and enough power to cause that much damage. If you can't find a pokemon to do that, you need some help with this game. But I'll be generous and give you a few ideas:
Mismagius
Infernape
Gengar
Starmie
Raikou
Jolteon
Alakazaam
Sceptile
Crobat
Choice Scarfed threats.
Priority threats: Lucario, Scizor, Arcanine
Bam.. chomp is gone. All of these pokemon are commonly found on offensive teams. I've never heard of any heavy offensive team complaining about Garchomp.. because they don't really care and he has no time to set-up. It's the Scarfchomp that wrecks them (which is the best varient and any skilled battler will attest to that).
So what makes this strategy any different from when you first encounter a Salamence?
"Salamence is susceptible to priority!" Chomp isn't? Both weak to Ice Shard. Sure, mence takes more from Bullet Punch, but if your initial Ice Beamer is strong enough that is a moot point since chomp is going to take a lot from Ice Beam to begin with. In fact, chomp is taking a minimum of 41% from a 220 Special Attack Ice Beam from Swampert, which leaves him with at most 52% health.
"I can switch out Garchomp!" Good luck getting another Swords Dance with only 40% health left when you come back in as your even more susceptible to revenge killing.
"Garchomp can 2HKO every pokemon in the game." What is different from this than Mixmence, who needs NO set-up to do the same thing?
"revenge killing is not a viable tactic!" We clearly need to ban Dragon Dance Salamence then...
"Why should I sack a pokemon to counter Garchomp?" Why should you sack your Porygon2 to a Salamence's Draco Meteor? Or your Gliscor to a SpecsLuke's Hidden Power Ice?
I can go on and on for days. But for shits and giggles, I remember watching bologo countering Garchomp with freaking Jumpluff encoring, knowing that the only way chomp could beat pluff would be Outraging (Dragon Claw isn't a OHKO) on the switch in..
Using Hyper Beam just to take down Chomp? Kinda funny, and I'm pretty sure Download boosted Ice Beam OHKOs Chomp even with Yache.
Anyway it was said before but when it comes to dealing with Chomp it all comes down to its item. Scarf means you can wall it, Band means you can revenge it or use very sturdy walls, yache means ice pokemon can't stop it, and Haban prevents Latias, and more importantly, Other Garchomps from ruining your fun. Just had a match where that was the case. Salac sets aren't doing so well with all the Skarm, but are still a threat to teams relieing on Scarfers to take it down.
I am still disapointed at how my Manaphy and other people's Manaphys seem to just die w/o barely doing anything.
On a side note, it would seem that the classic Chain Chomp set has been dead this whole time in suspect. Was that set ever popular or is it because of Latias or something else in suspect that its not used?
Anyway it was said before but when it comes to dealing with Chomp it all comes down to its item. Scarf means you can wall it, Band means you can revenge it or use very sturdy walls, yache means ice pokemon can't stop it, and Haban prevents Latias, and more importantly, Other Garchomps from ruining your fun. Just had a match where that was the case. Salac sets aren't doing so well with all the Skarm, but are still a threat to teams relieing on Scarfers to take it down.
I am still disapointed at how my Manaphy and other people's Manaphys seem to just die w/o barely doing anything.
On a side note, it would seem that the classic Chain Chomp set has been dead this whole time in suspect. Was that set ever popular or is it because of Latias or something else in suspect that its not used?
Hey guys, let's get Deoxys-A into suspect next time! Dead by priority even though he OH/2HKOs everything!
Why does everyone take that one aspect of the argument and apply it to a Pokemon that isn't being tested, nor is ever likely to be? Remember a few days ago someone was doing the same thing with Rayquaza? As i recall those posts got deleted because they have no real business in this argument.
But since it's been brought up yet again, Garchomp isn't OU because priority can kill him. He's OU because priority ISN'T the only thing that can stop him. Garchomp can be stopped by a plethora of checks and two pretty good counters. Yes, I call Bronzong and Skarmory counters. They switch in AS Garchomp is getting his +2, and Skarmory whirlwinds him out racking up spikes damage (if you're using Skarm, it's safe to say you have spikes) and Bronzong uses his chance to Explode, set up a weather effect, trick room, burn Garchomp (though SV makes this an inferior option), trick Iron Ball or Macho Brace onto Chomp, or w/e else your particular Zong is doing for your team. With TR or Rain set up Garchomp is just another Pokemon for you to rampage through to victory. Ironically in this instance Garchomp allowed you to set up a sweep ;-)
Yes, I also said he had a plethora of checks. Sceptile was a rather comic example, but there are of course more. Specs Latias can KO through Haban Berry with Draco Meteor if it switches in on the Earthquake. Scarfed Porygon-Z can revenge kill with Ice Beam through Yache berry. Hell, I used max def. Counter Blissey for a while to KO scarfed Outrage Garchomp. Nothing makes your day (Pokemon wise at least) more than killing a Garchomp with Blissey.
Garchomp is one hell of a sweeper, but he's no Uber.
But since it's been brought up yet again, Garchomp isn't OU because priority can kill him. He's OU because priority ISN'T the only thing that can stop him. Garchomp can be stopped by a plethora of checks and two pretty good counters. Yes, I call Bronzong and Skarmory counters. They switch in AS Garchomp is getting his +2, and Skarmory whirlwinds him out racking up spikes damage (if you're using Skarm, it's safe to say you have spikes) and Bronzong uses his chance to Explode, set up a weather effect, trick room, burn Garchomp (though SV makes this an inferior option), trick Iron Ball or Macho Brace onto Chomp, or w/e else your particular Zong is doing for your team. With TR or Rain set up Garchomp is just another Pokemon for you to rampage through to victory. Ironically in this instance Garchomp allowed you to set up a sweep ;-)
Yes, I also said he had a plethora of checks. Sceptile was a rather comic example, but there are of course more. Specs Latias can KO through Haban Berry with Draco Meteor if it switches in on the Earthquake. Scarfed Porygon-Z can revenge kill with Ice Beam through Yache berry. Hell, I used max def. Counter Blissey for a while to KO scarfed Outrage Garchomp. Nothing makes your day (Pokemon wise at least) more than killing a Garchomp with Blissey.
Garchomp is one hell of a sweeper, but he's no Uber.
Bronzong and Skarmory are NOT Garchomp counters.
Sure Skarm can whirlwind it away for the moment. However, what if Chomp already had SD'd and predicted a skarm so he used fire fang? Or what if Chomp had fire blast and just fire blasts skarm (it will 2hko either way).
More importantly, I wouldn't call Skarm a Chomp counter simply because it can whirlwind it away as I see counter as something that can safely switch into the opposing pokemon and kill it before it can kill you. Also, what can Bronzong do to Garchomp? Bronzong is even worse as it can't even whirlwind it away.
Gyro Ball/Explosion/Trick.