Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[WebBowser]

Subject 18 , Stathakis , jbtc10 Dang these are some of the best posts I've seen during this entire BP debacle. For the first time since I've gotten involved, I don't have any solid counter arguments prepared for any of the points made in the recent posts. Sure I could try to nitpick and say something like "Zard-X can actually swap into a decent variety of special attackers", but I have not found anything that would significantly weaken any of the arguments made by you all in any meaningful manner.

Unless I can find any data that directly contradicts the claims made recently (doubtful), I do not foresee myself making any further arguments on this matter. Frankly, I'm tired. I've been involved in this debate for far longer then what is probably good for me. Furthermore, these recent posts have thoroughly convinced me that there are other informed members in this debate, and that makes me happy. Thanks for making this one of the best debates I've been involved in, but it's probably time for me to duck out for awhile. I can still answer any questions about what scolipede can do, that info's not going anywhere, but it seems pretty clear that there is a strong possibility that the problem runs deeper then scolipede itself, much to my chagrin. Meh, I tried.

 

[Milkshook]

I would like to post a team I made and a replay of it

Scolipede @ Coba Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SDef
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Iron Defense
- Baton Pass
- Substitute

Absol @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Knock Off

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Soft-Boiled

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Icy Wind
- Scald

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 4 Spd / 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect

I used Scolipede because speed and defense are very helpful. Absol because I needed Magic Bounce so I don't lose against anything with Taunt or Roar. Mew because it's bulky and knows the moves I needed. The idea of the team is to eliminate pokemon that stop the baton passing, baton pass and then win with Keldeo or Clefable. Talonflame is a problem but Scolipede has a Coba Berry just in case and Gliscor can deal with it too. Gengar is a problem too but Absol can deal with it after evolution. Aegislash is also a problem but Absol can try to set up on it and Clefable gets past it with enough boosts.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136111683 A replay of the team working well.

It can work but isn't that reliable or easy to set up. It would be nice if someone that used BP last gen could try out the team.

 

[da gold sun]

(Forgive me if this has been brought up already) So I've been lurking this thread for a while, and watching replays of the top 100, and then I came across a replay of dEnIsSsS vs. toiletpkay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135609095

Now, I'm by no means an upper tier OU player, but I could see that toiletpkay invented that Honchkrow set specifically to counter the main BP team. There are 3-4 main reasons his set works so well.

- Honchkrow is dark type, which means he is immune to Stored Power.
- He gets Haze, arguably the only reliable way to counter a BP'd Magic Bounce Espeon.
- Insomnia prevents sleep, almost always from Spore Smeargle.
- STAB Brave Bird to take out Scolipede and enough base Attack to leave a dent in most of the BP team's main members.

If I had to guess, the set would be something like this.

Honchkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

toiletpkay is only 50 on the ladder, currently. dEnIsSsS is still #1. What I am saying is that yes, this Honchkrow set is very good at what it does, but it is a completely wasted spot on your team if you DON'T face off against a Smeargle-Espeon-Scolipede core. However, if you're in the top 100 or are ladder climbing way past noob-city, this might be worth considering. But, again, its extremely niche.

 

[TIZNE]

Thanks WebBowser for your reply. I'm usually the gut with the questions, not the answers. And indeed there have been very thoughtful post recently, not just bashing.

What has been said about Scolipede is important, and I'm leaning into saying that Speed Boost may be part of the problem since it's the best way to set-up quickly again after Haze. Getting of Speed Boost out of the chain will dilute the chain. But would that be enough?

Considering the idea of a "4-pokemon super set-up sweeper" brought up by Stathakis is very insightful: Even if we keep diluting the chain, BP can still get a "4-pokemon set-up sweeper". That's their stratetegy. So we can say that BP can change the components of the chain and still get an overly efficient result. At which point this strategy came from efficient to overpowered?

But what exacerbates the match ups is not the set-up chain, is its the recipients, mainly Espeon (and UnawareClef to an extent). The recipients are suited to avoid interaction with the usual BP checks: PHaze, Taunt, prankster thunderwave, other Set-up sweepers, fast offensive pokes immune to Stored Power. Some of this checks are present in most teams, and are no gimmicks. The recipients are far from broken, but they are what allow BP to ignore its usual checks. Little interaction is what makes the strategy linear and matchp-up based, but more importantly they make BP nearly uncounterable by so-called conventional means.

 

[WebBowser]

losedude I can forgive folks who leave things like staraptor or terrakion in in hopes to kill scolipede with a powerful SE STAB, but to spam unstabbed foul play against a defense booster of all things is simply unforgivable, especially when scoli started boosting his defense before klef even used foul play. That's roughly equivalent to spamming earthquake against mega pinsir and then wondering why you got swept. I am sorry to say that replay is totally meaningless. As for the rest of the replay, you got mad greedy. All you really needed was +2 attack on absol to start sweeping, +4 at most. The CMs were quite unnecessary and very risky. As for your team, attack is generally one of the least useful stats to pass, as any decent setup sweeper tends to be more then capable of boosting it's offensive stat of choice. Absol is probably better as an end sweeper then a passer because of this (though there's no reason why you can't run 3 attacks + BP or even 2 attacks + SD + BP mega absol, STAB + fairy is pretty good coverage). Anyway, as noted earlier, I mostly play quick pass in OU (mostly for the sake of researching scolipede), and do not have a 3 mon BP team for you to play with. Keep experimenting and figure out what works, that's how I got where I'm at (I'm actually pretty proud of the fact I've never netteamed).

TIZNE Honestly, it's only special setup sweepers BP needs to worry about. The troubling thing about scolipede is that he can setup in front of darn near any physical setup sweeper that doesn't have both an SE STAB and the ability to outspeed him. If they have both of those things, then it turns into a coin flip unless your name happens to be talonflame or mega pinsir. With that in mind, clefable isn't truely necessary as long as you have a swap in for common special sweepers. Ttar works great for this, clefable obviously is also very good, and I personally like using togekiss. Espeon is much harder to replace though. Sure mega absol might be able to start sweeping a turn or two faster, but it loses out on morning sun and lefties, as well CM and the ability to invest in bulk (yes, he prolly does learn CM, no it's not a good idea, no I don't feel like confirming either of the two above statements). You make a good point in saying that many of the preferred recipients are chosen based on their ability to ignore normal setup sweeper checks, most notably phasing (BP has few tools to work around haze, but that's pretty gimmicky), but the reason why they are so hard to take down in the first place is that they are essentially ignoring two very important stats, attack and speed. If even the strongest super effective phys attacks can be shrugged off and nothing can outspeed it, then any sweeper is going to be incredibly threatening. It certainly takes a few turns to get there, but no other OU sweeper can obtain those sort of boosts as quickly as scolipede + recipient with offense boosting move.

So in short, yes the recipients help a lot, but it would be like looking at gen 4 meta before the garchomp ban and banning mamoswine counters instead of garchomp itself because that's what's stopping the only thing capable of stopping garchomp (yes I know there were other things, I was giving a hypothetical-ish example.) The recipients themselves may or may not be independently strong, but it's the stat boosts that pushes them into broken territory.

 

[TIZNE]

(...) but the reason why they are so hard to take down in the first place is that they are essentially ignoring two very important stats, attack and speed. If even the strongest super effective phys attacks can be shrugged off and nothing can outspeed it, then any sweeper is going to be incredibly threatening. It certainly takes a few turns to get there, but no other OU sweeper can obtain those sort of boosts as quickly as scolipede + recipient with offense boosting move.

I totally agree with that. Scolipede is an overly efficient way to set-up, very reliable, and can do it repeatedly through out a match.

I just wanted to show that there are different things going on with the half-BP team: Teh most realiable screener and taunter (Deo-S), a way too efficient quick-passer (Scolipede), backed by recipients that can completely blank the usual checks (Magic Bounce, Unaware, spore, bulky substitute...).

To sum up, I'll say:
-No one wants to get through a BP suspect test again.
-Banning Deos is not hurting BP: it can afford another screener, or just rely on the resilence of Scolipede.
-Banning BP+SpeedBoost would definitely make the chain slower and less efficient, but not necessarily weaker.
-Banning BP+Magic Bounce accomplishes very little. It would make BP more interactive, but not necessarily less threatening. It'll remain somewhat match-up based.
-But banning the move Baton Pass stills feels like limiting creativity.

 

[D-Ssain]

(Forgive me if this has been brought up already) So I've been lurking this thread for a while, and watching replays of the top 100, and then I came across a replay of dEnIsSsS vs. toiletpkay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135609095

Now, I'm by no means an upper tier OU player, but I could see that toiletpkay invented that Honchkrow set specifically to counter the main BP team. There are 3-4 main reasons his set works so well.

- Honchkrow is dark type, which means he is immune to Stored Power.
- He gets Haze, arguably the only reliable way to counter a BP'd Magic Bounce Espeon.
- Insomnia prevents sleep, almost always from Spore Smeargle.
- STAB Brave Bird to take out Scolipede and enough base Attack to leave a dent in most of the BP team's main members.

If I had to guess, the set would be something like this.

Honchkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

toiletpkay is only 50 on the ladder, currently. dEnIsSsS is still #1. What I am saying is that yes, this Honchkrow set is very good at what it does, but it is a completely wasted spot on your team if you DON'T face off against a Smeargle-Espeon-Scolipede core. However, if you're in the top 100 or are ladder climbing way past noob-city, this might be worth considering. But, again, its extremely niche.

I used this exact set but with Sucker Punch instead of Roost 1-2 months ago. Here is a replays of me using it on a stall team replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-122895439 because ya know stall hates BP. But the problem is you are dedicating an entire mon for teams that are less than 10 percent on the ladder. Don't get me wrong Honch was amazing against BP when I used him on this team and I even got to 1850ish with the team but that was because the other five members carried Honch. He didn't do anything against Stall or HO because of lack of power against Stall and lack of speed against HO. Despite how effective he is against BP he's not OU viable.

 

[WebBowser]

I totally agree with that. Scolipede is an overly efficient way to set-up, very reliable, and can do it repeatedly through out a match.

I just wanted to show that there are different things going on with the half-BP team: Teh most realiable screener and taunter (Deo-S), a way too efficient quick-passer (Scolipede), backed by recipients that can completely blank the usual checks (Magic Bounce, Unaware, spore, bulky substitute...).

To sum up, I'll say:
-No one wants to get through a BP suspect test again.
-Banning Deos is not hurting BP: it can afford another screener, or just rely on the resilence of Scolipede.
-Banning BP+SpeedBoost would definitely make the chain slower and less efficient, but not necessarily weaker.
-Banning BP+Magic Bounce accomplishes very little. It would make BP more interactive, but not necessarily less threatening. It'll remain somewhat match-up based.
-But banning the move Baton Pass stills feels like limiting creativity.

This is pretty much the conclusion that I've come to. In my spare time, I've tried theory-monning what would happen if zapdos or mew led instead of scoli. The answer was pretty much either you led with a mon that can ohko it (or dent it and then finish it with priority), lead with a phazer, or the chain quickly goes out of control as it now has switch initiative.

 

[JMach]

(Forgive me if this has been brought up already) So I've been lurking this thread for a while, and watching replays of the top 100, and then I came across a replay of dEnIsSsS vs. toiletpkay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135609095

Now, I'm by no means an upper tier OU player, but I could see that toiletpkay invented that Honchkrow set specifically to counter the main BP team. There are 3-4 main reasons his set works so well.

- Honchkrow is dark type, which means he is immune to Stored Power.
- He gets Haze, arguably the only reliable way to counter a BP'd Magic Bounce Espeon.
- Insomnia prevents sleep, almost always from Spore Smeargle.
- STAB Brave Bird to take out Scolipede and enough base Attack to leave a dent in most of the BP team's main members.

If I had to guess, the set would be something like this.

Honchkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

toiletpkay is only 50 on the ladder, currently. dEnIsSsS is still #1. What I am saying is that yes, this Honchkrow set is very good at what it does, but it is a completely wasted spot on your team if you DON'T face off against a Smeargle-Espeon-Scolipede core. However, if you're in the top 100 or are ladder climbing way past noob-city, this might be worth considering. But, again, its extremely niche.

Is Taunt absolutely necessary? I'd propose putting Taunt on something else and using Honchkrow purely as a counter to Espeon. At least then, you could slap something like SP on him instead to make him a little less useless in non-BP matchups.

 

[pws72000]

I've been reading as much of this thread as I could mentally allow myself in the past couple of hours, and I'm frankly surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of a Baton Pass Clause, not an outright ban or complex restriction. Specifically, I suggest a measure that would limit the amount of times you could use Baton Pass per match, preferably to 3. Any attempts to use the move after you have hit this limit would result in a failed move, and thus, a wasted turn, similar to how sleep inducing moves fail to function normally after Sleep Cause is active.

The situation at hand is very much "a rock and a hard place" kind of deal. If you quick-ban BP outright, then you create collateral damage that only needlessly takes away from completely unrelated users of the move that can and already viably work now (i.e. quickpass users like Celebi, Choiced mons using it sheerly for the switch initiative). However, if we accept the 3 BP user limit as it is, the "short chain" playstyle will only continue to propogate, mostly unchecked. The Baton Pass Clause may be a potential solution to both problems.

It has already been well established that Denisss' team has taken this community almost completely by surprise, and as a result, has decisively shifted the upper portion of ou (at the very least in this conversation) towards a mentality of pick and counterpick in regards to BP's C&C, which has so far only tangibly manifested itself into a very select few (Chandelure, Noivern, Brick Break, Haze Quagsire, and many others). Some do their job better than others, but most are simply not cut out to function in the vanilla OU environment. Seems very indicative of an overcentralizing playstyle if you ask me. A shifting metagame is fine, but change should ideally be a gradual process. BP chains have the problem of immediately making the vast majority of existing OU anti-meta-mons largely irrelevant.

Keep in mind that although the Baton Pass argument is largely structural, as it questions the foundations upon which the entire tier and its viability rankings are built, I have no intention of wasting anyone's time talking about how the OU metagame should or shouldn't function. I lack the experience, credentials, and attention span necessary in which to do so. As such, anything I contribute can only be seriously considered within the confines of the existing OU tier structure.

This whole situation reminds me of a scene from Death Note, where the detective Near explains his options and policy on how he plans to capture the serial killing force, Kira. At this time, one of Near's assistants asks him why they can't simply shoot Kira. Near replies, "Such ex-facto justification will not be tolerated... That's not how we work."

 

[Karxrida]

I've been reading as much of this thread as I could mentally allow myself in the past couple of hours, and I'm frankly surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility of a Baton Pass Clause, not an outright ban or complex restriction. Specifically, I suggest a measure that would limit the amount of times you could use Baton Pass per match, preferably to 3. Any attempts to use the move after you have hit this limit would result in a failed move, and thus, a wasted turn, similar to how sleep inducing moves fail to function normally after Sleep Cause is active.

The situation at hand is very much "a rock and a hard place" kind of deal. If you quick-ban BP outright, then you create collateral damage that only needlessly takes away from completely unrelated users of the move that can and already viably work now (i.e. quickpass users like Celebi, Choiced mons using it sheerly for the switch initiative). However, if we accept the 3 BP user limit as it is, the "short chain" playstyle will only continue to propogate, mostly unchecked. The Baton Pass Clause may be a potential solution to both problems.

It has already been well established that Denisss' team has taken this community almost completely by surprise, and as a result, has decisively shifted the upper portion of ou (at the very least in this conversation) towards a mentality of pick and counterpick in regards to BP's C&C, which has so far only tangibly manifested itself into a very select few (Chandelure, Noivern, Brick Break, Haze Quagsire, and many others). Some do their job better than others, but most are simply not cut out to function in the vanilla OU environment. Seems very indicative of an overcentralizing playstyle if you ask me. A shifting metagame is fine, but change should ideally be a gradual process. BP chains have the problem of immediately making the vast majority of existing OU anti-meta-mons largely irrelevant.

Keep in mind that although the Baton Pass argument is largely structural, as it questions the foundations upon which the entire tier and its viability rankings are built, I have no intention of wasting anyone's time talking about how the OU metagame should or shouldn't function. I lack the experience, credentials, and attention span necessary in which to do so. As such, anything I contribute can only be seriously considered within the confines of the existing OU tier structure.

This whole situation reminds me of a scene from Death Note, where the detective Near explains his options and policy on how he plans to capture the serial killing force, Kira. At this time, one of Near's assistants asks him why they can't simply shoot Kira. Near replies, "Such ex-facto justification will not be tolerated... That's not how we work."

First of all, that's unnecessarily complicated for a ban.
Secondly, it wouldn't help any because you only need to BP 3 times anyway to do what dEnIsSsS is doing (since there are 3 BPers in his team now).
Finally, the collateral is non-existent since Espeon is kinda shit and Scolipede is viable without Baton Pass anyway.

 

[WebBowser]

pws72000 To add on to Karx's point, this idea was brought up in some form or another waaaay back in the pre-suspect BP thread (I do not advise you to go back there, just take my word for this, please). It was shot down mostly because it was widely thought that a simpler solution would work and it didn't have any clear cut advantages over the limiting of BPers. I for one, very rarely get three chances in a game to quick pass with scoli, and if I do, I usually win, because it's pretty darn hard to stop if I can get even one quick pass off successfully, let alone three.

Even if we ignore the complexity argument, I'm simply not seeing it helping to be honest.

 

[pws72000]

First of all, that's unnecessarily complicated for a ban.
Secondly, it wouldn't help any because you only need to BP 3 times anyway to do what dEnIsSsS is doing (since there are 3 BPers in his team now).
Finally, the collateral is non-existent since Espeon is kinda shit and Scolipede is viable without Baton Pass anyway.

1. I get what you mean, but when you look at it in perspective, I don't really see it. For example...
a. You may not have more than 3 users of Baton Pass on your team.
b. You may not use the move Baton Pass more than 3 times per match.

2. I chose the number 3 precisely for the reasons you just mentioned. Having 3 BP's means you have one chance to pull off a full 3-mon chain. If you're interrupted mid-chain by say, a Mold Breaker Roar from Mega Gyarados, then your ability to set up again later becomes severely hindered. Any subsequent attempts to boost and pass become more akin to Smashpass than full BP setup. This forces you to think ahead instead of blindly setting up after hazards are down, as a well placed phaze or Perish Song can potentially function as an alternate win condition. Aside from that, it also inherently benefits the person playing against BP, because they now have clear knowledge of their opponent's boosting capabilities, which makes predicting their switches much easier.

Did your opponent just +2 DEF/+2 Spd on their Scolipede while you have a phazer like Skarmory waiting in the back? Assuming they're running the standard Scolipede/Espeon/Smeargle core, you can be pretty sure that a pass to Smeargle followed by an Ingrain is on the way.

This is just an example of how the 3 use limitation aims to take the autoplay-ish setup and at the very least, inject some mindgames into it. I originally considered a 2 use limit, but that just makes BP into a glorified Smashpass method rather than an actual playstyle, although imo it wouldn't be the worst idea.

3. Celebi =/= Scolipede. Espeon being crap outside of BP teams doesn't justify removing it's only option of gaining momentum, especially if I just want to use it as a scarfer or with specs. Simply being low tier never stopped people from wanting to use low C/D crap like Hawlucha and Haxorus. Whether for recreation or experimentation, there's nothing wrong with that. Sure, I wouldn't be caught dead trying to seriously rank with them, but the tier exists for more than just those of us who want to ladder to the top. Simply banning BP does create collateral damage for many players who like to use the move in different and diverse ways. More than that, it sets a bad precedent for Smogon as a whole - that if something goes wrong, we can just throw out a blanket ban and if anything else got caught up, well that's just too bad. That's not how Smogon works. Bans happen in order to regulate tier-specific threats and to further Smogon's vision of a more competitive and orderly playing field. That's it.

Anyway, sorry if I came off as preachy or sounded like Verlisify, this is just something I feel strongly about.

pws72000 To add on to Karx's point, this idea was brought up in some form or another waaaay back in the pre-suspect BP thread (I do not advise you to go back there, just take my word for this, please). It was shot down mostly because it was widely thought that a simpler solution would work and it didn't have any clear cut advantages over the limiting of BPers. I for one, very rarely get three chances in a game to quick pass with scoli, and if I do, I usually win, because it's pretty darn hard to stop if I can get even one quick pass off successfully, let alone three.

Even if we ignore the complexity argument, I'm simply not seeing it helping to be honest.

You make some very good points. I came up with the BP Clause as a deterrent to full pass chains more than an outright counter. If the metagame does demand an outright counter, than hey, bring the limit down to 2 uses or maybe even 1. That way, a BP is forced to make compromises from the get-go, i.e. leaving out Ingrain Smeargle. That's the beauty of using a clause instead of a strict ban. The fact is, your quoted thread was made a long time ago and we still don't have a definitive answer on how to make BP chain teams fit in the existing metagame. The genius of Denisss' teams is in their utilitarianism. Baton Pass is the crux of the strategy, but as a standalone move, it's harmless, essentially making simple blanket bans against any one pokemon or move (inherent to the playstyle) impossible.

 

[WebBowser]

pws72000 Not even remotely related to your points, but in general, if you are trying to reply to multiple people, just simply hit reply on both the messages you want to reply to then write your reply to each member in that same post, as opposed to posting twice. Yes this works. It's generally better to have one longer posts then multiple short posts.

Now onto the actual point you were making: The purpose of the BP mon limit that is in place here was to do just that, to try to limit the power of a baton pass chain. Many arguments supporting the ban had thinking that looked like this: "If we make the limit down to this, then the BP chain can only have one of the following sylveon (dark type counter and has positive matchups against a lot of special mons), Zapdos (counters fly spam), or Smeargle (ingrain and stops setup sweepers)." What it seems like people failed to take into account is that a mon does not need to carry BP in order to be a BP counter-counter, and once the counters are gone, sweeping can commence, often times with little further interaction with the opponent. There has been considerable argument as to whether or not this is alright.

 

[pws72000]

pws72000 Not even remotely related to your points, but in general, if you are trying to reply to multiple people, just simply hit reply on both the messages you want to reply to then write your reply to each member in that same post, as opposed to posting twice. Yes this works. It's generally better to have one longer posts then multiple short posts.

Now onto the actual point you were making: The purpose of the BP mon limit that is in place here was to do just that, to try to limit the power of a baton pass chain. Many arguments supporting the ban had thinking that looked like this: "If we make the limit down to this, then the BP chain can only have one of the following sylveon (dark type counter and has positive matchups against a lot of special mons), Zapdos (counters fly spam), or Smeargle (ingrain and stops setup sweepers)." What it seems like people failed to take into account is that a mon does not need to carry BP in order to be a BP counter-counter, and once the counters are gone, sweeping can commence, often times with little further interaction with the opponent. There has been considerable argument as to whether or not this is alright.

My thoughts EXACTLY. The 3-mon limit seems like it turned BP into more of a simple boosting engine rather than the larger toolbox that it used to be. IMO it's both a success and a failure. W/out the toolbox of switch-ins you outlined, you can't autopilot matches quite like you could before (solving the "skill" problem), and with a frailer core, HO teams can on occasion break through with force alone, but then again, that's all match-up dependent. Like you said, simply limiting the number of Baton Pass users doesn't solve much. The big problem here is that we've only just recently ended the suspect test, and now, in all likelihood, we'll probably need another. That's why my proposed clause is numbers based, as it allows for a certain degree of flexibility over time, once implemented - instead of going through the painstaking process of voting on more and more complex bans and enduring repeated rounds of suspect testing like we have been. It just takes too long.

 

[Jukain]

Your clause actually causes more collateral than you think. Say I want to use a Baton Pass Celebi for the sake of argument. I come into Keldeo and want to pivot out. I'm doing this constantly. I'm going to pass that limit, but I'm using Baton Pass in a very legitimate and non-broken manner. Placing a limit on BP users has no collateral and is simple and efficient. These points are why a per team limit is preferred to your solution.

 

[pws72000]

Your clause actually causes more collateral than you think. Say I want to use a Baton Pass Celebi for the sake of argument. I come into Keldeo and want to pivot out. I'm doing this constantly. I'm going to pass that limit, but I'm using Baton Pass in a very legitimate and non-broken manner. Placing a limit on BP users has no collateral and is simple and efficient. These points are why a per team limit is preferred to your solution.

To be clear, I completely support the established BP user limit, for all the reasons I've outlined in previous posts. My proposed clause is designed to work in conjunction with the existing ruling. As for the Celebi/collateral issue, I admit that there's no easy answer, and that probably makes my 3 use limitation more of a compromise than an actual solution. Your example is very valid and something I was aware of before I made my first post here. The limit does pretty heavily crack down on dry-passing, especially when facing stall in longer games, and that means you'll have to choose carefully whether to hard switch or dry-pass as the game goes on. Fortunately, 3 uses is enough to at least allow something like 1 dry-pass and 2 NP passes, or some combination thereof - you get the idea. It isn't all that lenient, but I find it preferable to a blanket ban of Baton Pass or Scolipede or Espeon, while a combination ban (i.e. banning BP + Magic Bounce or a ban of Baton Pass on a specific list of pokemon) might be overly complex. Let me know your thoughts - if you have an alternative solution, I'd be especially interested to know.

 

[Jukain]

I just want to limit BP to 1-2 mons, that's a simple and effective solution.

 

[pws72000]

I just want to limit BP to 1-2 mons, that's a simple and effective solution.

it's a possible solution, but doing that effectively removes Baton Pass as a playstyle entirely. I'm not sure if drastic action like that is warranted.

 

[Grey Waves]

it's [limiting BP to 1 member] a possible solution, but doing that effectively removes Baton Pass as a playstyle entirely.

No it does not. Quickpass will still be viable, even if Baton Pass chains are destroyed. 'Baton Pass' as a playstyle is not just Baton Pass teams.

 

[Pocket]

pws72000, your proposal of limiting the number of times one can use BP is very arbitrary, which reminds me why I dislike the current clause on BP - it's arbitrary. Setting an arbitrary cap on Pokemon that can use BP isn't gonna stop Denissss, etc from using the broken stuff like Scolipede and Espeon. Some may argue that Espeon isn't broken, because it is not broken outside of BP chains. If such logic is sound, then you're essentially agreeing that Excadrill in BW2 wasn't broken, because it is fine outside of sand. Obviously that's not the case. If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken.

Basically restricting the number of Baton Pass users is a pretty sloppy solution, when simply taking out the problematic BP users is much more clear-cut. Without these users, you can attempt to make a 4 or 5-mon BP chain team (which exceeds the current imposed limit) and struggle to net stupidly easy wins (or win at all).

Well, what are the cancerous Pokemon out of the plethora Pokemon that learns Baton Pass? Quoting dEnIsSsS from his RMT:

So essentially banning Espeon / Magic Bounce + BP is sufficient to drop the viability of BP chain teams by many folds. However, as many users have identified in suspect threads, such as WebBowser, Scolipede is a critical component in any hated BP chain team we see today, netting passive Speed boosts that enables defensive boosts to go up before the opponent's assaults even connect, thereby enabling this vicious BP cycle.

Bottomline - Option 3 (Complex bans of Magic Bounce + BP and Speed Boost + BP) would be a full stop to the current BP teams that we abhor facing on the ladder (or hell even in tournaments, as seen in at least 2 official matches). No more RPS match-ups that Stathakis mentions with these elements removed. I wouldn't mind tacking a ban on Ingrain Pass as well, just as a final nail on the coffin (although, this is quite gratuitous).

I think that people should have the freedom to design a "Baton Pass team" or a semi-bp team if they desire, as long as they are not using elements that broke these teams (Magic Bounce, Speed Boost, Ingrain w/e). Banning Baton Pass entirely or limiting the number of Baton Pass users to 1 or 2 imposes unnecessary restrictions to this game.

 

[pws72000]

No it does not. Quickpass will still be viable, even if Baton Pass chains are destroyed. 'Baton Pass' as a playstyle is not just Baton Pass teams.

I apologize for not being specific. By Baton Pass team, I was referring to the 3 mon core or "half-chain", composed of Scolipede, Espeon, and usually Smeargle. Quickpass is it's own separate strategy, a very viable one at that, and I've already spoken about it in previous posts. I purposefully didn't reference it as a "Baton Pass team", as most Quickpass teams don't need to rely on NP passes as their sole win condition.

pws72000, your proposal of limiting the number of times one can use BP is very arbitrary, which reminds me why I dislike the current clause on BP - it's arbitrary. Setting an arbitrary cap on Pokemon that can use BP isn't gonna stop Denissss, etc from using the broken stuff like Scolipede and Espeon. Some may argue that Espeon isn't broken, because it is not broken outside of BP chains. If such logic is sound, then you're essentially agreeing that Excadrill in BW2 wasn't broken, because it is fine outside of sand. Obviously that's not the case. If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken.

Bottomline - Option 3 (Complex bans of Magic Bounce + BP and Speed Boost + BP) would be a full stop to the current BP teams that we abhor facing on the ladder (or hell even in tournaments, as seen in at least 2 official matches). No more RPS match-ups that Stathakis mentions with these elements removed. I wouldn't mind tacking a ban on Ingrain Pass as well, just as a final nail on the coffin (although, this is quite gratuitous).

I think that people should have the freedom to design a "Baton Pass team" or a semi-bp team if they desire, as long as they are not using elements that broke these teams (Magic Bounce, Speed Boost, Ingrain w/e). Banning Baton Pass entirely or limiting the number of Baton Pass users to 1 or 2 imposes unnecessary restrictions to this game.

Arbitrary, huh. PERFECT WORD. seriously, you're 100% right. The current rule is exactly that, but I didn't vote on it, so hey. Whatever. I'm just trying to think of a way to properly balance BP w/out resorting to a blanket ban. Honestly, your option 3 probably makes more sense than my BP clause, but the community tends to have trouble accepting complex bans. I can only speculate as to how well the recent "failed" 3-mon restriction went over. People just don't like complex bans; it makes for more things that they'll have to memorize.

 

[looiiyut]

(Forgive me if this has been brought up already) So I've been lurking this thread for a while, and watching replays of the top 100, and then I came across a replay of dEnIsSsS vs. toiletpkay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135609095

Now, I'm by no means an upper tier OU player, but I could see that toiletpkay invented that Honchkrow set specifically to counter the main BP team. There are 3-4 main reasons his set works so well.

- Honchkrow is dark type, which means he is immune to Stored Power.
- He gets Haze, arguably the only reliable way to counter a BP'd Magic Bounce Espeon.
- Insomnia prevents sleep, almost always from Spore Smeargle.
- STAB Brave Bird to take out Scolipede and enough base Attack to leave a dent in most of the BP team's main members.

If I had to guess, the set would be something like this.

Honchkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Haze
- Roost
- Taunt

toiletpkay is only 50 on the ladder, currently. dEnIsSsS is still #1. What I am saying is that yes, this Honchkrow set is very good at what it does, but it is a completely wasted spot on your team if you DON'T face off against a Smeargle-Espeon-
Scolipede core. However, if you're in the top 100 or are ladder climbing way past noob-city, this might be worth considering. But, again, its extremely niche.

IMO Denis was totally unprepared to insomnia-honchkrow and he lost for this reason. Honchkrow is a good BP-counter but it's also frail. Switch on clefable instead of smeargle and honchkrow is ko and without it the battle is over.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 326-386 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
The whole toiletpkay's team is built to beat BP (brick break-azumarill) beacause he hates Denis! lol
I don't like his negative attitude towards Denis (watch the comments in the chat of all battles vs denis) but I acknowledge this team works very well and his creativity was rewarded.
I think that Taunt-mixed thundurus is the best solution and it's more useful than Honchkrow in ou tier.

 

[Shiruba]

Okay, hold up. It seems that most people here are out for the blood of Baton Pass, so why go through the bullshit? It's already been made very clear that Blaze Blaziken isn't allowed in OU, that Mold Breaker Excadrill wasn't allowed last-gen, so why all the complex bans now all of a sudden? It's very clear that you guys want it gone more than you want it nerfed; banning Espeon w/ Baton Pass seems quite arbitrary in this sense. If Espeon can be broken in certain circumstances, ban Espeon. If Scolipede can be broken under certain circumstances, ban Scolipede. That's like saying Blaziken's okay without Swords Dance or Deoxys-A's okay because it's not broken defensively. Doesn't Policy Review say we should prefer banning Pokemon to abilities/moves, which gives banning Pokemon precedence to banning moves, like Baton Pass entirely?

Either way, though, I do think more time should pass before we come to such conclusions, and possibly the total banning of Deoxys, to arrive at better determination of the state of Baton Pass.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Okay, hold up. It seems that most people here are out for the blood of Baton Pass, so why go through the bullshit? It's already been made very clear that Blaze Blaziken isn't allowed in OU, that Mold Breaker Excadrill wasn't allowed last-gen, so why all the complex bans now all of a sudden? It's very clear that you guys want it gone more than you want it nerfed; banning Espeon w/ Baton Pass seems quite arbitrary in this sense. If Espeon can be broken in certain circumstances, ban Espeon. If Scolipede can be broken under certain circumstances, ban Scolipede. That's like saying Blaziken's okay without Swords Dance or Deoxys-A's okay because it's not broken defensively. Doesn't Policy Review say we should prefer banning Pokemon to abilities/moves, which gives banning Pokemon precedence to banning moves, like Baton Pass entirely?

Either way, though, I do think more time should pass before we come to such conclusions, and possibly the total banning of Deoxys, to arrive at better determination of the state of Baton Pass.

Although I don't agree on the current (or next I guess) BP nerf/ban, I do want to point at these ambiguous posture when banning stuff. Smogon claims to avoid complex bans for a reason (dunno what's wrong with Blaze Blaziken tbh) yet some of the users here are proposing the most ridiculous and obscure "clauses" (if you wanna call them that) like limiting the amount of BP per match lol. It's not like I didn't foresee this happening, but even after a nerf people are still unprepared and haven't really adapted to a different playstyle. Good job fellas