Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[658Greninja]

1. I said MOST of them, not all. I know scream tail will not be a good check.
2. You're running oddly suboptimal sets for this situation, like leftovers on Enamorus-T over boots, Meowscarada not using sucker Punch or physically bulky amoonguss.
3. Tera Exists.

1. Hard check does not mean counter, it means "counter unless X" and said X is being full health or not having weird coverage.
2. Meowscarada runs Low Kick less than 8% of times considering it's not even in the list of moves. if that's the case then it's completely walled by Kingambit.
3. Is more of a 36.4% chance of 2HKO and 70% of OHKO, although due to confusion is more like a 48/52.
4. You're right on Enamorus. I had those numbers wrong for some reason and said Enamorus only dealt 38-46% damage for some reason.

And of course you'll ignore the "Burning a tera to defeat a dangerous wallbreaker is worth it" part. Matches are no longer just use a move or switch to receive better the incoming attack, but now also has now type changes as a third option for either fix type or to have a better matchup on the short or long term.

I’m sorry but just because Slowking can Tera, it doesn’t make it a check. Its like saying Heatran is a Tusk check because it can Tera Flying.

Meow does indeed run Low Kick sometimes. It threatens Gambit, Bax, Tran, and is a good move to use overall cause the meta is filled with big bois.

And speaking of Meow, if your Pult “check” dies to U-Turn of all moves, it is not a check.

Also there is a reason more specially defensive variants of Amoonguss aren’t common and why the spread is. For Amoonguss to live two Sballs from Specs Pult after rocks, it would need 192 SpD or 100 SpD with a SpD+ nature. The optimal spread would be to go 252HP/156DFSE/100SPD. Seems good right? Well there are problems with this.

The purpose of the spread is to live a Tera Dark Knock from +2 Valiant after rocks,

+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Amoonguss: 309-364 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Tera Dark Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Amoonguss: 348-411 (80.5 - 95.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Live two HLR from Booster Tusk with very high odds.

4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 160-190 (37 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Amoonguss: 180-213 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Avoid a possible 2HKO from Ada Samu

252+ Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Amoonguss: 150-177 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Amoonguss: 169-199 (39.1 - 46%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Live a Pyro Ball from bulky Ace and click Spore in a pinch.

32 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Amoonguss: 294-348 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

32 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 156 Def Amoonguss: 332-392 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Though the spread you talked about does have other uses outside of checking Pult. Avoiding a 2HKO from Specs Tera Fairy Enam Moonblast after rocks, living a Hurricane from offensive Zapdos (low roll with rocks up), and avoiding a kill from Sandy Shocks clicking Earth Power + Tera Ice Blast. So I am half-wrong about Amoonguss not being a Pult soft check.

 

[TheTraininator]

Landorus Incarnate in gen5 lasted throughout BW1 despite straddling the line.

Although I agree with you that a Pokémon can straddle a line for a long time before tipping over into broken just based on metagame shifts and evolution of sets alone, this isn’t a good example because Landorus didn’t have access to its Hidden Ability in BW1; Pokémon Dream Radar, (which released on the same day as BW2), granted it Sheer Force, and that was the thing that ultimately caused it to be broken.

 

[JohnDeHunkx]

Hi, after reading some of the post here I would like to give some insights here as I mostly notice the same focus on Kingambit itself and how it threatens even its Checks and Counters. It should probably looked at a different lens as to why its a "problem".

Before stating why, my stance is mainly DO NOT BAN, but since I generally am unable to participate on Suspect test due to time, I will leave them as thoughts as to why instead.

The Gambit

This has been said a million times but I will reiterate them, Kingambit is undoubtedly a devastating wallbreaker to the point where even Great Tusk, Dondozo, and even Burns could be maneuvered around thanks to Tera.

Now in theory, Gambit can be easily worn down by hazards and passive damage, which despite some variants possibly running Heavy Duty Boots or Air Balloon, it is far worse than the standard Leftovers or Black Glasses that leaves it susceptible to switch in more often and easily getting worn down and checks finishing it off.

However, with the release of HOME, they've not only released a superior partner to both partner and check Kingambit, it has oppressed many playstyles that has made Hyper Offense difficult to deal with than usual.

The root cause? Enter Cinderace



(Well, more so of Court Change in it of itself but after some testing and thoughts, Cinderace has seem to silently enable its team to barrage a variety of teams far too easily, where it should had pose a challenge instead)

Energizer Bunny
So how does Cinderace enables Kingambit to be a problem? For starters, Court Change itself already solves Kingambit's greatest issue and prevents it from having to constantly be cornered into a situation that its forced to come out, making Air Balloon sets much more difficult and preserving its longevity further / more opportunities to Swords Dance.

Its partners like Enamorus and Baxcalibur, could stay healthy while setting up / revenge kill anything that's an obstacles to Kingambit without dire consequences and necessitating Heavy Duty Boots on them. Stall tends to handle such teams with ease and prompts them to sacrifice a move and slot in a random partner / Taunt just to beat them and lose to other matchups, whereas Cinderace neglecting Hazards and absorbing passive damage at times means its teammates like Slowking pivoting freely into another, especially Knock Off users like Great Tusk and Iron Treads can remove their boots easily and rarely could use their own Hazards against them lest they would be worn down by Court Change.

Now onto Cinderace itself. It's movepool compliments Court Change to greater effects, such as being able to surprise opponents with High Jump Kick and Sucker Punch for things like Garganacl, Ursaluna, and Dragapult expecting a free switch-in into a standard bulky pivot set. If they predict for those said variations, threats such as Dragonite and Roaring Moon could be easily worn down by Burns and U-turns repeatedly.

This was mainly the deciding factor that made me felt that Cinderace rather than Court Change itself was a problem. So how would it affect Kingambit

Dynamic Changes
If Cinderace was not around, Kingambit would be much manageable to deal with, aside from the rise of Gholdengo again. Great Tusk has a far better time to Rapid Spin while having more flexibility in its tera type to deal with Gambit's teammates, mainly Tera Steel in conjunction with Bulk Up.

Much more Hyper Offense teams that relies on Hazards means that Kingambit and its teammates can't bludgeon the opponents easily, and Hatterene's possible return means that status Hazards are still not feasible to click, where Hisui-Samurott can focus on more offensive sets, especially Swords Dance, and Kleavor being a complimentary Lead. Other methods to deal with teams that use Kingambit would no longer be as oppressive.

Now of course, Kingambit itself is used on a variety of teams other than the Sample set, but due to the effectiveness of how it dissuades most of its issues, it has been deemed a "problem" where it actuality, how its being enabled by its teammates is.


Thoughts
With that, despite Kingambit being able to rampage through most of its Checks and Counters when it gets going, it can be easily stopped by the same tools that would had worked previously, but due to Cinderace suppressing said tactics and enabling partners that puts Kingambit "over the edge", it is the sole reason why Kingambit is an oppressive factor and in future Cinderace could be a greater problem in it of itself.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Dracovish had more real defensive answers than Kingambit does currently. Full PhysDef Pex with Baneful Bunker could put it on a timer, Lapras was a tech with Water Absorb + Freeze Dry, Dragapult could come in one single time on Fishious Rend, obviously not Dragon moves which it didn't want to click unless against Seismitoad, etc. Offensively, Dragapult and Zeraora could do well against it and priority with things like Bisharp could help the match-up immensely. Dracovish is broken, and so is Kingambit. Currently, every Kingambit defensive answer is Schrodinger's Tera unless it is max PhysDef Dondozo.

Just because you can play around Kingambit does not mean it is healthy or balanced, just as you could play around Dracovish. More easily than Kingambit, I'd add, you either had the Pokemon that beat it or you didn't.

Sucker Punch with Leftovers can help Kingambit get free recovery throughout the game, or maybe just know what you are going to use your Kingambit for.

Having to keep several Pokemon alive against one because it can beat back all conventional checks anyways is not a good presence in the meta. The reason I mention chip on one single Pokemon is exactly that: Sometimes, not uncommonly Kingambit needs literally 10-40% chip on one single Pokemon as its wincon, and that's it.

Calcing no SD is laughable because it is getting a Swords Dance boost in the vast majority of games. And with defensive Tera it lives a lot of attacks that can be thrown back at it.

Bro, literally the ONLY answer to vish besides things that could outspeed scarf were WATER ABSORB mons. THAT IS IT.


At least gambit you can outplay potentially and it has a good amount of checks, and some hard counters. Dracovish had NONE.

Hi, after reading some of the post here I would like to give some insights here as I mostly notice the same focus on Kingambit itself and how it threatens even its Checks and Counters. It should probably looked at a different lens as to why its a "problem".

Before stating why, my stance is mainly DO NOT BAN, but since I generally am unable to participate on Suspect test due to time, I will leave them as thoughts as to why instead.

The Gambit

This has been said a million times but I will reiterate them, Kingambit is undoubtedly a devastating wallbreaker to the point where even Great Tusk, Dondozo, and even Burns could be maneuvered around thanks to Tera.

Now in theory, Gambit can be easily worn down by hazards and passive damage, which despite some variants possibly running Heavy Duty Boots or Air Balloon, it is far worse than the standard Leftovers or Black Glasses that leaves it susceptible to switch in more often and easily getting worn down and checks finishing it off.

However, with the release of HOME, they've not only released a superior partner to both partner and check Kingambit, it has oppressed many playstyles that has made Hyper Offense difficult to deal with than usual.

The root cause? Enter Cinderace



(Well, more so of Court Change in it of itself but after some testing and thoughts, Cinderace has seem to silently enable its team to barrage a variety of teams far too easily, where it should had pose a challenge instead)

Energizer Bunny
So how does Cinderace enables Kingambit to be a problem? For starters, Court Change itself already solves Kingambit's greatest issue and prevents it from having to constantly be cornered into a situation that its forced to come out, making Air Balloon sets much more difficult and preserving its longevity further / more opportunities to Swords Dance.

Its partners like Enamorus and Baxcalibur, could stay healthy while setting up / revenge kill anything that's an obstacles to Kingambit without dire consequences and necessitating Heavy Duty Boots on them. Stall tends to handle such teams with ease and prompts them to sacrifice a move and slot in a random partner / Taunt just to beat them and lose to other matchups, whereas Cinderace neglecting Hazards and absorbing passive damage at times means its teammates like Slowking pivoting freely into another, especially Knock Off users like Great Tusk and Iron Treads can remove their boots easily and rarely could use their own Hazards against them lest they would be worn down by Court Change.

Now onto Cinderace itself. It's movepool compliments Court Change to greater effects, such as being able to surprise opponents with High Jump Kick and Sucker Punch for things like Garganacl, Ursaluna, and Dragapult expecting a free switch-in into a standard bulky pivot set. If they predict for those said variations, threats such as Dragonite and Roaring Moon could be easily worn down by Burns and U-turns repeatedly.

This was mainly the deciding factor that made me felt that Cinderace rather than Court Change itself was a problem. So how would it affect Kingambit

Dynamic Changes
If Cinderace was not around, Kingambit would be much manageable to deal with, aside from the rise of Gholdengo again. Great Tusk has a far better time to Rapid Spin while having more flexibility in its tera type to deal with Gambit's teammates, mainly Tera Steel in conjunction with Bulk Up.

Much more Hyper Offense teams that relies on Hazards means that Kingambit and its teammates can't bludgeon the opponents easily, and Hatterene's possible return means that status Hazards are still not feasible to click, where Hisui-Samurott can focus on more offensive sets, especially Swords Dance, and Kleavor being a complimentary Lead. Other methods to deal with teams that use Kingambit would no longer be as oppressive.

Now of course, Kingambit itself is used on a variety of teams other than the Sample set, but due to the effectiveness of how it dissuades most of its issues, it has been deemed a "problem" where it actuality, how its being enabled by its teammates is.


Thoughts
With that, despite Kingambit being able to rampage through most of its Checks and Counters when it gets going, it can be easily stopped by the same tools that would had worked previously, but due to Cinderace suppressing said tactics and enabling partners that puts Kingambit "over the edge", it is the sole reason why Kingambit is an oppressive factor and in future could be a greater problem in it of itself.

I'm DNB on Gambit for a good amount of reasons (Even if sucker punch 50/50s are annoying.) but this isn't it. Hazards actually help dealing with gambit as you can put it in range of your priority with a faster sucker puncher if you can outpredict the tera or have a proper offensive answer. I think hazards actually keep gambit more in line weirdly enough.

 

[JohnDeHunkx]

I'm DNB on Gambit for a good amount of reasons (Even if sucker punch 50/50s are annoying.) but this isn't it. Hazards actually help dealing with gambit as you can put it in range of your priority with a faster sucker puncher if you can outpredict the tera or have a proper offensive answer. I think hazards actually keep gambit more in line weirdly enough.

Yes indeed, that was the main point of the whole post. Cinderace essentially removes that counterplay to Kingambit and a few other reasons how it shapes the meta, though probably would save it for a different time.

 

[DaemonChop]

Although I agree with you that a Pokémon can straddle a line for a long time before tipping over into broken just based on metagame shifts and evolution of sets alone, this isn’t a good example because Landorus didn’t have access to its Hidden Ability in BW1; Pokémon Dream Radar, (which released on the same day as BW2), granted it Sheer Force, and that was the thing that ultimately caused it to be broken.

I think a better example would be SS Kyurem. Yes, it got some nasty buffs going into the gen, but was considered a decent part of its metagame until the Never Melt Ice set pushed it over the edge. I wouldn't say there's any one particular innovation pushing Gambit over the edge in this case, just sort of its entire thing (maybe the intense diversification of Tera types we've seen counts), but we do have examples of other pokemon being considered largely handle-able for much of a meta before becoming broken.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I think a better example would be SS Kyurem. Yes, it got some nasty buffs going into the gen, but was considered a decent part of its metagame until the Never Melt Ice set pushed it over the edge. I wouldn't say there's any one particular innovation pushing Gambit over the edge in this case, just sort of its entire thing (maybe the intense diversification of Tera types we've seen counts), but we do have examples of other pokemon being considered largely handle-able for much of a meta before becoming broken.

Kyu was banned in SS cuz specs was hard to switch into and players unironically cited frz as a reason it was OP lol
Specs ice beam + freeze dry stopped a lot of torn/pex regen degen cores and ppl started crying about it.
Lowkey bullshit ban and the meta just became that much more slow and boring after it was gone.

SS should have suspected boots or regen instead of Kyu tbh, cuz its ban didn't improve the meta, as well know.
EDIT: Or Static/Flame Body. Either way SS had problems that go beyond Kyu who really wasn't that bad

 

[June Heat]

It gonna lie, I’m a little doomer pilled on this one.

I think it has become obvious that Kingambit has entrenched itself in the meta game for far too long for people to willingly take action on it. With such a large meta game share it seems like people are afraid of removing it in fear that OU itself would crumble without it. Also since we’ve been playing around it for these past several months people have become comfortable building teams with it in mind. Obviously it helps that the mons that check it or good mons, but the fact that we can just ignore the impact of tera’ing Gambit to “steal” away games better than any mon in the tier kinda spells it.

Honestly this suspect test is a waste of time, and any other non Tera suspect would follow the same trends. People have become comfortable with the meta game, and suspecting any Pokemon would probably follow the same trend. I’ll still get reqs and vote ban in hope that we try to improve thing. Sorry for the downer post…

 

[BolTingBlazie]

It gonna lie, I’m a little doomer pilled on this one.

I think it has become obvious that Kingambit has entrenched itself in the meta game for far too long for people to willingly take action on it. With such a large meta game share it seems like people are afraid of removing it in fear that OU itself would crumble without it. Also since we’ve been playing around it for these past several months people have become comfortable building teams with it in mind. Obviously it helps that the mons that check it or good mons, but the fact that we can just ignore the impact of tera’ing Gambit to “steal” away games better than any mon in the tier kinda spells it.

Honestly this suspect test is a waste of time, and any other non Tera suspect would follow the same trends. People have become comfortable with the meta game, and suspecting any Pokemon would probably follow the same trend. I’ll still get reqs and vote ban in hope that we try to improve thing. Sorry for the downer post…

Honestly I wanna ban/restrict tera, because its clear something has to be done with all the side effects it brings.

I don't wanna do this back and forth dance until the end of the gen with tera, its getting really old to try and justify not taking action on it.

Kyu was banned in SS cuz specs was hard to switch into and players unironically cited frz as a reason it was OP lol
Specs ice beam + freeze dry stopped a lot of torn/pex regen degen cores and ppl started crying about it.
Lowkey bullshit ban and the meta just became that much more slow and boring after it was gone.

SS should have suspected boots or regen instead of Kyu tbh, cuz its ban didn't improve the meta, as well know.

Nah, meta became extremely fun. Regen and boots were fun. Honestly I would rather play SS OU right now since its way more fun than SV OU right now, and that's not an exaggeration. After kyurem got banned SS became really fun despite being a fatter meta, and SS is in an incredibly good spot and is a really cool meta.

 

[Bakugames]

it would be kinda funny if sv ou was just going back and forth between tera and gambit suspects except neither get banned. I think we should do this for the bit

 

[DaemonChop]

it would be kinda funny if sv ou was just going back and forth between tera and gambit suspects except neither get banned. I think we should do this for the bit

ngl this kinda seems like a very likely outcome lmao

 

[Floatstonemafia]

Kingambit could go either way, but there's no way on tera. It's going to fail to get banned, it might even fail to get restricted, and then it's going to be left alone until the post generation.

Which is why I'm starting to lean towards a Kingambit ban. I don't really think it's worth banning on it's own merits since it's problems largely boil down to 'it's checkable if tera wasn't a mechanic', but this format is awful right now, and if tera's not going to get banned (which it won't) then the only option left is to ban enough stuff to try to fix the format that way. So that means Kingambit is as good a place to start as any.

 

[Naraku Kirigiri]

got reqs and i'll be voting dnb, gambit is fine and i'll rather get rid of bax over it, fuck bax

 

[Ctann]

just a quick commentary on the status moves often brought up as ways to deal with Kingambit.

Trick: can be switched out of, one time use

Will-o-wisp: can be switched out of, minor detriment if it is a non physical attacker switching in, gambit can SD in front of a wisp

Encore: can be switched out of, no detriment to the switch in

Substitute: surprisingly reliable and usually not expected, sacrifices coverage in order to be used

they’re good ways to check kingambit but they don’t exactly “beat it” the way checks usually should. This is part of the reason why kingambit often causes a few KOs before it’s actually dealt with.

 

[CoralReaper707]

ngl this kinda seems like a very likely outcome lmao

Well I'm gonna be voting Ban just so that doesn't happen.
This thing is hella scary. Solid HP, high defense and attack, two scary abilities in supreme overlord and defiant, a nice typing (ignoring the quad fighting weakness), and making poor Bisharp obsolete. I did enjoy Kingambit meta for a while, but it got old really quickly. Sorry, Kingambit. But supreme overlord is too much as it allows you to kill quad resists with minimal chip.

 

[Imw0rstadP0keM0n]

It gonna lie, I’m a little doomer pilled on this one.

I think it has become obvious that Kingambit has entrenched itself in the meta game for far too long for people to willingly take action on it. With such a large meta game share it seems like people are afraid of removing it in fear that OU itself would crumble without it. Also since we’ve been playing around it for these past several months people have become comfortable building teams with it in mind. Obviously it helps that the mons that check it or good mons, but the fact that we can just ignore the impact of tera’ing Gambit to “steal” away games better than any mon in the tier kinda spells it.

Honestly this suspect test is a waste of time, and any other non Tera suspect would follow the same trends. People have become comfortable with the meta game, and suspecting any Pokemon would probably follow the same trend. I’ll still get reqs and vote ban in hope that we try to improve thing. Sorry for the downer post…

Same thing has happened with Tusk tbh, it's unfortunate.

If I get req's (I won't), I'll be voting DNB because Gambit checks DPult and Evil Ass Golden Goo

 

[658Greninja]

Same thing has happened with Tusk tbh, it's unfortunate.

What are you implying?

 

[Avira]

Same thing has happened with Tusk tbh, it's unfortunate.

If I get req's (I won't), I'll be voting DNB because Gambit checks DPult and Evil Ass Golden Goo

That is a horrible take. Great Tusk is nowhere near broken. Its usage is sky-high because it's the most splashable and useful hazard removal option with a good offensive profile in a meta with very limited removal. Great Tusk isn't centralizing. If anything, it's Gholdengo that forces great Tusk to have such high usage.

 

[Drifting]

Now that my team is out of World Cup, I think I have a better understanding of how I stand on Kingambit.

It’s absolutely the best mon in the meta, for sure. It feels like a lot of games have a structure where both players battle, until one fucks up enough and has to opt for what I call “Kingambit’s Last Stand”, where last mon Kingambit tera’s, sd’s, all that bullshit to try and muscle through the other players remaining pokemon. This can of course be really frustrating for the player on the receiving end, since it makes a lot of previous decisions in the game “not matter”.

I’m not entirely convinced the mon is broken though. It’s an insane Tera glutton, for one, and in matchups where you would want to tera another mon for whatever reason you’re often giving up most of Kingambit’s opportunities to pop off, since its typing is so exploitable by common mons like Tusk. It reminds me a LOT of Curse Garg in its gameplay identity and function, a ghost switch-in / hugely explosive albeit tera reliant sweeper.

It also suffers from pretty bad 4mss, with Iron Head variants being hard stopped by opposing Gambit and Low Kick variants being shutdown by fairy types, whether they be natural fairies or tera’d ones like dirge. The more time that passes, items other than Leftovers seem to be becoming rarer on Gambit, making the mon a lot more predictable.

Gambit’s clutch factor is absolutely insane, but Supreme Overlord, a major component of the clutch factor, is inherently flawed in that it relies on your teammates being unusable to be effective. In other words. Kingambit is at its most powerful when it’s the only option you have left, making Kingambit endgames a bit easier to navigate, and while it’s a menace in close games, if the Kingambit user is losing significantly, even pokemon like Hoopa or Zapdos can still beat a +0 gambit if they’re healthy.

The big problem is of course, Tera allowing free SD’s, but I think playing more proactively, such as going for Knock with Tusk instead of EQ is helpful. Furthermore, Tera goes both ways, and changing into any type that resists Dark will usually allow a mon to revenge last mon Kingambit.

Every archetype does seem like it has something to handle Gambit. Offense has their Samurott’s, Jolly Low Kick Gambits, Valiant, Enamorus and Encores, Balance has Moltres, Heatran, Zamazenta and Lando. Stall’s options are limited unsurprisingly considering Gambit is basically Super Crawfaunt, but Dozo can handle it pretty fine as long as it’s not the rare Tera Dark Black Glasses, as well as ID Corv. All of these variants of course have Tusk as well, the by far best counter.

In contrast to this, the positive effects Kingambit has on the meta are in my opinion pretty good. It really helps keep a lot of obnoxious pokemon/strategies in check, such as Specs Ghold/Pult, Alomomola Stall, Future Sight Glowking, Grassy Seed Hatterene and Weather. Kingambit providing a consistent source of powerful priority to the meta in my opinion helps keep a lot of general cheese in check, and I think losing that could honestly make the meta a lot worse.

Overall, I think at this point I’m leaning towards Do Not Ban. Kingambit seems pretty inarguably busted, being usually the most important mon in every game from preview, but I think the mon is just exploitable enough, and the positives outweigh the negatives enough to keep it around. I’m really on the fence though.

 

[dakotaromans]

Do we have to post the alt for the test here?

 

[txlix]

Do we have to post the alt for the test here?

nah just use your account that you alr made (the one you just commented with) and post a screenshot of your reqs with your alt here

 

[Martin]

Do we have to post the alt for the test here?

screenshot your reqs here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-round-5-voter-identification-thread.3725123/

 

[dakotaromans]

nah just use your account that you alr made (the one you just commented with) and post a screenshot of your reqs with your alt here

Still gaining my reqs but im using a different alt than my name here is that fine

 

[Martin]

Still gaining my reqs but im using a different alt than my name here is that fine

as long as u screenshot it in the thread it's fine. just make sure you can prove that it's you (e.g. by putting your smogon username in the text box/chat line with your screenshot). just look at the other posts and copy them.

 

[kd458]

Still unconvinced on what to vote during this suspect, but currently leaning towards Ban.

Kingambit doesn't feel oppressively broken but it's by far the most constraining thing in the teambuilder when you have to account for every possible variation. Supreme Overlord is an incredibly strong ability that not only boosts its power to turn Gambit into essentially Mega Mawile with Leftovers or a boosting item, it cushions the blow of making horrible plays. You lose 3 mons cus you played like shit and let them go down for nothing? No, free Life Orb. I feel that the arguments that without it Pult or Ghold would be oppressive are fantastical as Gambit is not 100% usage, what do those other teams run to deal with Pult? Pult isn't even the most threatening mon into a lot of Gambit-less teams, not arguing that it isn't good but calling it broken post-Gambit is evidence of a metagame where players are far too reliant on Kingambit as a crutch to enable Shit teambuilding and Shit plays because they have a Gambit in the back to handle everybody. Almost all of the answers listed in this thread are not consistent answers, because the variation in Gambit sets means that you really have to account for everything to not be weak to it. Universal Kingambit counter who always wins, Great Tusk? Hard loses to Tera Fairy Terablast, loses to Tera Flying if not BU Tusk, cannot switch in repeatedly due to lack of reliable recovery, Gambit just gets chip off and switches out to come back later with more deads in the back.

Why am I not convinced? It breaks stall and handles a lot of mons that don't really have a solid answer without it, like Cresselia and Hatterene (pre-Tera), and in a Tera-less metagame (Which I do not want) it is not broken and has reasonably consistent defensive answers. It's hard to argue that it is objectively broken, instead of simply being unskilled and unfun to play and play against. This isn't enough to convince me to not vote Ban though. Learn to build teams that don't fold to Ghost types without your universal crutch and learn to not make shit plays, lose 5 mons and win anyway because you have the right Tera.