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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Agreed. I was thinking of making a mega Altaria team after seeing what it's capable of. If anyone has teammate suggestions, please message me.
I agree with a rise for ampharos
Ampharos is a fantastic pivot with a little bit of support, and is a mon that is capable of still doing great damag despite having little to no sp. Atk investment. I have built up a a pretty solid amount of experience with it over the past month, and I actually think it's really solid. It's a solid zard y check, which seems to be growing in popularity lately, and also take care of birdspam. It's also got 2 unique sets that it can choose from as well which gives it a bit of unpredictability. I personally think Mega Fabio has enough going for it to make it B rank worthy, but that could be just me.
Ampharos is a fantastic pivot with a little bit of support, and is a mon that is capable of still doing great damag despite having little to no sp. Atk investment. I have built up a a pretty solid amount of experience with it over the past month, and I actually think it's really solid. It's a solid zard y check, which seems to be growing in popularity lately, and also take care of birdspam. It's also got 2 unique sets that it can choose from as well which gives it a bit of unpredictability. I personally think Mega Fabio has enough going for it to make it B rank worthy, but that could be just me.
I really haven't been playing the tier extensively atm, and thus don't really feel educated enough on most of the slate, but two mons that i DO know about and have a level of experience with are Clefable and Mega Pidgeot.
I'd say Clefable is a great defining mon in ORAS, having good versatility, utility with being able to SR/TWave/Knock Off, and great typing. It's definitely more splashable than a lot of A+ threats but honestly that's because there ARE so many A+ threats that there are some that are clearly better than the others. Clefable just seems far too vulnerable with common stuff like Mega Metagross, Talonflame, SD Gliscor, and lando before it sets up CM threatening it. I've always felt that Clefable is one of those mons that's really good but not good enough to reach the kind of combination of effectiveness and versatility that S-rank threats usually manage to achieve.
Mega Pidgeot needs to rise lol, Flying STAB in itself is incredible and it's definitely more effective/can fit on teams easier in the current meta than stuff like Thundurus-T or Heracross, I'd say B- or B is perfect for it. It's also been used to success, for example, by user: Style in her OST match against blunder iirc.
I'd say Clefable is a great defining mon in ORAS, having good versatility, utility with being able to SR/TWave/Knock Off, and great typing. It's definitely more splashable than a lot of A+ threats but honestly that's because there ARE so many A+ threats that there are some that are clearly better than the others. Clefable just seems far too vulnerable with common stuff like Mega Metagross, Talonflame, SD Gliscor, and lando before it sets up CM threatening it. I've always felt that Clefable is one of those mons that's really good but not good enough to reach the kind of combination of effectiveness and versatility that S-rank threats usually manage to achieve.
Mega Pidgeot needs to rise lol, Flying STAB in itself is incredible and it's definitely more effective/can fit on teams easier in the current meta than stuff like Thundurus-T or Heracross, I'd say B- or B is perfect for it. It's also been used to success, for example, by user: Style in her OST match against blunder iirc.
Decided to seperate my posts into hide tags becuase they were starting to get kinda ridiculous. Anyway, my thoughs on a few things that were discussed a while ago :
Yeah, why isn’t Venomoth ranked? Quiverpass is pretty damn potent, especially when you have such excellent recipients as Landorus and Diancie (the two of which having great synergy btw) at your disposal. You can argue that Smashpass is better but Venomoth has a few things over Gorebyss, for instance, it can run another item like Black Sludge or Sash without giving nasty Defense and SpD drops to whatever it’s passing to. In fact, the extra SpD bulk can help Venomoth set up more than one Quiver Dance in a few scenarios. Sleep Powder is pretty huge, it really eases setup. As for Smeargle, it's way frailer and more vulnerable to priority and faster attackers like Keldeo in general, and though it can run Geomancy, it needs a lot of support to fo so because without Screens or Memento it doesn't have the bulk to do anything without a sash. Wonder Skin can also be pretty clutch with with its ability to bs through Taunts and Whirlwinds and the like. It may not be as immediate as Gorebyss/Huntail/Smeargle but imo it’s more consistent, it can even set up more than once per battle in a few cases. I really think it's on par with Gorebyss in terms of viability and deserves to be ranked.
Shuckle shouldn’t be unranked becuase it has a distinct, undeniable niche. I don’t care how bad you think SW teams are, they are still a viable playstyle (unlike, say, hail), and since Shuckle is required on these teams it deserves to be ranked.
A drop to C- or D makes sense though, Serperior is a huge problem as mentioned by Vertex, and I wouldn't say you can just ignore Sableye since it's starting to be used on balance teams as well, and those are teams where fast Pokemon are employed and will outspeed your wallbreaker. Starmie is getting more and more common and though TTar is quite common on SW teams and traps it, it's still spinning your rocks away which is all it really needs to do. It's just not a great playstyle atm.
A drop to C- or D makes sense though, Serperior is a huge problem as mentioned by Vertex, and I wouldn't say you can just ignore Sableye since it's starting to be used on balance teams as well, and those are teams where fast Pokemon are employed and will outspeed your wallbreaker. Starmie is getting more and more common and though TTar is quite common on SW teams and traps it, it's still spinning your rocks away which is all it really needs to do. It's just not a great playstyle atm.
Srn discussed a possible Celebi drop a while back and I’d like to hear more opinions on this because I’m really really torn on it, and I say this as possibly the biggest Celebi fanboy ever.
Celebi admittedly deals with a lot of things and provides a lot of team support though nastypass, SDpass, heal bell, stuff like that, but it’s absolutely true that it’s pretty easy to take advantage of and ultimately needs support itself.
I’m going to compare it to Hippowdon here since their role in the metagame is kinda similar, both being commonly used on balance teams to handle a good number of things at once.
Hippo walls a slightly larger range of threats than Celebi does, and though it lacks versatility, it’s a lot more self-sufficient and less vulnerable to really common types and really powerful wallbreakers. Hippo just happens to both be less weak to the kind of stuff you really really don’t want to give free switchins to (besides I guess Landorus) and more threatening to the things that like switching in on it while still keeping its defenses intact. While Celebi can threaten its checks with an offensive set, these sets have to sacrifice quite a bit defensively and have a much harder time handling stuff like Lopunny and Thundurus. Hippo, on the other hand, can just throw around Toxics and Stone Edges and even stuff like Ice Fang and have it still be worth it without using too much defensively.
Then there’s the fact that a bunch of Pokemon can just choose to beat Celebi if they want to. Stuff like HP Bug Keldeo, NP Thundurus, Ice Beam Manaphy, etc.
And sure, Celebi can use BP to pivot out of scary stuff but by BPing you don’t recover, and I often find that Celebi needs to be kept really healthy to convincingly wall anything bar I guess Sub CM Keldeo, much more so than Hippowdon does.
But at the same time, Celebi can handle defensive Pokemon a lot better than Hippowdon and most other defensive Pokemon in A, by setting up in their faces and passing to something else. I guess the metagame getting slightly more offensive benefits Hippowdon and is a problem for Celebi, but even so, being able to do much more vs an entire archetype is pretty huge. I guess this ultimately depends on how much you value the Pokemon’s individual prowess compared to when it’s being supported by a team.
TFL actually brought up a decent point that, much like Landorus-T (which I still think should drop btw), Celebi’s status as a general check to a bunch of things means that it ultimately tends to serves as a band-aid for poorly-built teams, at the risk of having some wallbreaker be able to deal huge damage to it. As a result, even though Celebi isn’t itself a bad Pokemon, it tends to find itself on bad teams, and that better teams are more likely to run Ferrothorn or Chesnaught or just something which doesn’t quite check as much but stands on its own feet more easily. I really don’t know how this factors in viability, or if this statement holds much truth to it, (and you can argue the same thing about Hippowdon to some extent) but you can definitely argue that Celebi isn’t as good as it looks just because it beats a bunch of things, and that using it will often just displace the problem with your team instead of removing it. Again, really don’t know where Celebi should go (probably leaning towards it staying A just because of its sheer versatility) but I do know we should take a closer look at it.
(There’s also probably a comparison with Ferrothorn and Jirachi to be drawn somewhere but this bit has honestly gone on for too long so eh)
Celebi admittedly deals with a lot of things and provides a lot of team support though nastypass, SDpass, heal bell, stuff like that, but it’s absolutely true that it’s pretty easy to take advantage of and ultimately needs support itself.
I’m going to compare it to Hippowdon here since their role in the metagame is kinda similar, both being commonly used on balance teams to handle a good number of things at once.
Hippo walls a slightly larger range of threats than Celebi does, and though it lacks versatility, it’s a lot more self-sufficient and less vulnerable to really common types and really powerful wallbreakers. Hippo just happens to both be less weak to the kind of stuff you really really don’t want to give free switchins to (besides I guess Landorus) and more threatening to the things that like switching in on it while still keeping its defenses intact. While Celebi can threaten its checks with an offensive set, these sets have to sacrifice quite a bit defensively and have a much harder time handling stuff like Lopunny and Thundurus. Hippo, on the other hand, can just throw around Toxics and Stone Edges and even stuff like Ice Fang and have it still be worth it without using too much defensively.
Then there’s the fact that a bunch of Pokemon can just choose to beat Celebi if they want to. Stuff like HP Bug Keldeo, NP Thundurus, Ice Beam Manaphy, etc.
And sure, Celebi can use BP to pivot out of scary stuff but by BPing you don’t recover, and I often find that Celebi needs to be kept really healthy to convincingly wall anything bar I guess Sub CM Keldeo, much more so than Hippowdon does.
But at the same time, Celebi can handle defensive Pokemon a lot better than Hippowdon and most other defensive Pokemon in A, by setting up in their faces and passing to something else. I guess the metagame getting slightly more offensive benefits Hippowdon and is a problem for Celebi, but even so, being able to do much more vs an entire archetype is pretty huge. I guess this ultimately depends on how much you value the Pokemon’s individual prowess compared to when it’s being supported by a team.
TFL actually brought up a decent point that, much like Landorus-T (which I still think should drop btw), Celebi’s status as a general check to a bunch of things means that it ultimately tends to serves as a band-aid for poorly-built teams, at the risk of having some wallbreaker be able to deal huge damage to it. As a result, even though Celebi isn’t itself a bad Pokemon, it tends to find itself on bad teams, and that better teams are more likely to run Ferrothorn or Chesnaught or just something which doesn’t quite check as much but stands on its own feet more easily. I really don’t know how this factors in viability, or if this statement holds much truth to it, (and you can argue the same thing about Hippowdon to some extent) but you can definitely argue that Celebi isn’t as good as it looks just because it beats a bunch of things, and that using it will often just displace the problem with your team instead of removing it. Again, really don’t know where Celebi should go (probably leaning towards it staying A just because of its sheer versatility) but I do know we should take a closer look at it.
(There’s also probably a comparison with Ferrothorn and Jirachi to be drawn somewhere but this bit has honestly gone on for too long so eh)
About the possible Gallade drop mentioned by AM a few days ago : I can kinda see the logic behind Gallade dropping because it seems like the more ORAS progresses, the more and more costly that precious mega slot gets (also probably an argument for MLatios to drop). But you obviously can’t look at Gallade without comparing it to other mega wallbreakers.
Is Gallade worse than Pinsir? It might be, but I’m not sure it’s worth a rank lower than it. Pinsir may be harder to wall and have decent priority, but Gallade’s slightly higher Speed is still a pretty big advantage against more offensive teams, enabling it to tie against a bunch of stuff. I know it’s not something to rely on, but it does matter in a pinch. While they have basically equal bulk, just with the Defense and SpD switched, Gallade imo has a typing which enables it to set up more easily. But SR weakness is a massive deal more than anything, it’s a pretty big teambuilding constraint that doesn’t affect Gallade.
Then again, Pinsir is just not prepared for at all, and while people don’t really prepare for Gallade much either, a lot of things that people run anyway naturally check it. I don't think I can really say that for Pinsir (what with a lot of Skarms running SpD with Iron Head and subsequently losing to it), although Scarf TTar and Stone Edge Hippowdon’s popularity does hurt it quite a lot.
Is Gallade on par with Heracross? I think not. The Speed decrease is a pretty massive deal especially given that basically 75% of offensive threats in OU are in the 75-110 speed range. Yes, Heracross has higher bulk, hits harder, and is a bit more difficult to walls (pretty much, Gallade counters=Heracross counters+Sableye), but the speed is such a huge deal for it that I can’t see Gallade in the same rank. Unless you want to also drop Heracross (which I guess is conceivable but I’m really not sure about that one either) I don’t think Gallade should drop quite yet.
Is Gallade worse than Pinsir? It might be, but I’m not sure it’s worth a rank lower than it. Pinsir may be harder to wall and have decent priority, but Gallade’s slightly higher Speed is still a pretty big advantage against more offensive teams, enabling it to tie against a bunch of stuff. I know it’s not something to rely on, but it does matter in a pinch. While they have basically equal bulk, just with the Defense and SpD switched, Gallade imo has a typing which enables it to set up more easily. But SR weakness is a massive deal more than anything, it’s a pretty big teambuilding constraint that doesn’t affect Gallade.
Then again, Pinsir is just not prepared for at all, and while people don’t really prepare for Gallade much either, a lot of things that people run anyway naturally check it. I don't think I can really say that for Pinsir (what with a lot of Skarms running SpD with Iron Head and subsequently losing to it), although Scarf TTar and Stone Edge Hippowdon’s popularity does hurt it quite a lot.
Is Gallade on par with Heracross? I think not. The Speed decrease is a pretty massive deal especially given that basically 75% of offensive threats in OU are in the 75-110 speed range. Yes, Heracross has higher bulk, hits harder, and is a bit more difficult to walls (pretty much, Gallade counters=Heracross counters+Sableye), but the speed is such a huge deal for it that I can’t see Gallade in the same rank. Unless you want to also drop Heracross (which I guess is conceivable but I’m really not sure about that one either) I don’t think Gallade should drop quite yet.
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A- -> B+
It somewhat hurts to make this nomination, and yet it somewhat doesn't. I wanted Mega Gallade to be a great pokemon, to see it sweep teams regularly, but I've found it disappointing and stopped fearing it even when it's set up. My own experience with it has not been much better. It's a pokemon which took quite a solid spot on the hype train after the reveal of its stats, with some even nominating it for S rank. However, I feel as though while the metagame has arguably gotten friendlier to Mega Gallade with the decline of Mega Sableye and SpD Skarmory becoming more common, I feel like this is somewhat counteracted to an extent by the parts of the metagame that are more hostile to it. The rising popularity of fairies in general hurts it, as it might find itself either outright walled or less set-up opportunities, increasingly popular pokemon such as Tornadus-T as well as quite a few numerous pokemon that outspeed it and can put a dent in it such as Starmie, Raikou, and now Serperior can also finish it off. I'm actually a bit shaky on this decision so if you wish, then you can sway me, but I don't feel as though Mega Gallade is good enough for A-.
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I don't really have the time to post atm, but why is Diancie (non mega) ranked? What does it do?
I believe it's ranked for its ability to reliably set trick room for stuff like Mega-Camerupt. It's also able to deal with one of trick room teams' biggest problems - Talonflame.
I think Clefable should rise to S at this point because quite frankly it has a ton more splashability than the current A+ ranked Pokemon right now while fitting on almost all of the effective archetypes in our metagame right now. These so call answers to it aren't as exactly as linear as the majority of answers to the A+ ranked partners such as Garchomp, Bisharp, and Heatran. It really has all the tools and typing to give teams that extra dimension and is a defensive component that has the ability to hinder and go toe to toe with some very dangerous stuff in our tier thus people kind of overlook this and focus a lot on its matchup against stuff like M-Metgross and M-Scizor, both of which aren't exactly surefire safe answers due to the nature of what Clefable is able to run. So just from a support standpoint alone I would say it's one of the more consistent ones in our tier right and would confidently say it's on par with Keldeo and the others.
Shuckle could probably drop not so much of M-Diancie and M-Sableye, let's be real here if you built a Sticky Web team not able to handle these you're doing it wrong, but more so Serperior because running Sticky Web means you want to take a gamble of coming up against one and basically giving it a scarf with no repercussions. Most of Serperiors offensive answers are ones that fall on the 115 base speed tier and above and the nature of sticky web teams simply can't afford that risk of providing Serperior what so ever. This seems like a very specific reason for it to drop but it's actually much larger than people realize to the point where I feel it's definitely a legitimate reason to bring it down.
You see the problem I have with tieing stuff in terms of speed is that you're not exactly beating them more so letting the RNG do the work for you. So all these base 110s it threatens is really just a stalemate if it gets the chance to mega evolve in the first place in the hopes RNG is on your side. Albacore we looked at literally everything in the A- ranked and came to the conclusion that a good 3/4 of them have a much easier time doing their job than M-Gallade does, we didn't just focus on just the wall-breakers because that would just be exaggerating M-Gallade in what it does when you see stuff like Gyarados, Serperior, and Volcarona that necessitates more legitimate counter play in that their ability to set up can get out of control in where M-Gallade can set up and you can potentially still lose opportunities to even utilize it in the long run. The higher speed tier only goes so far when M-Gallade is so pressured not to be touched due to its mediocre typing that is prone to a lot in the first place. It's simply more suited to B+ in where you have mons like Togekiss, Dragonite, and M-Heracross who have notable niches but their flaws can be apparent enough at times to where they won't always accomplish what needs to be done just from a comparison point looking at the A- and B+ ranked Pokemon in terms of effectiveness.
With that being said Idk about Celebi dropping. Baton Pass alone is a huge niche for it other than providing its offensive and defensive utility and makes the ease of using others like M-Diancie such as RP M-Diancie + Nasty Plot Celebi so basic that it can be mindless at times. Pretty neutral on it right now though.
Shuckle could probably drop not so much of M-Diancie and M-Sableye, let's be real here if you built a Sticky Web team not able to handle these you're doing it wrong, but more so Serperior because running Sticky Web means you want to take a gamble of coming up against one and basically giving it a scarf with no repercussions. Most of Serperiors offensive answers are ones that fall on the 115 base speed tier and above and the nature of sticky web teams simply can't afford that risk of providing Serperior what so ever. This seems like a very specific reason for it to drop but it's actually much larger than people realize to the point where I feel it's definitely a legitimate reason to bring it down.
People don't prepare for Mega Heracross, at all. I've played so many games that peoples answers to Mega Heracross were either M-Altaria or some shitty double switching aspect where clicking the wrong partner and getting hit with the coverage move you didn't want to see happens and throws your gameplan off track, more or less making my games much easier than I would with M-Gallade. So as far as M-Gallade and M-Heracross being of equal viability goes yes I can whole heartedly say that is definitely the case. You have a fighting type in M-Gallade that isn't even a legitimate switch in to Dark Spam which is embarrasing because it has the real possibility of losing to stuff that it's actually suppose to be beating. M-Heracross because of its bulk, higher power, and typing gives it a much better response to threats like Bisharp and is able to take way more neutralities than M-Gallade because of that enhanced physical bulk and imo is much more serious threat to Balance that requires more concrete threat control.
You see the problem I have with tieing stuff in terms of speed is that you're not exactly beating them more so letting the RNG do the work for you. So all these base 110s it threatens is really just a stalemate if it gets the chance to mega evolve in the first place in the hopes RNG is on your side. Albacore we looked at literally everything in the A- ranked and came to the conclusion that a good 3/4 of them have a much easier time doing their job than M-Gallade does, we didn't just focus on just the wall-breakers because that would just be exaggerating M-Gallade in what it does when you see stuff like Gyarados, Serperior, and Volcarona that necessitates more legitimate counter play in that their ability to set up can get out of control in where M-Gallade can set up and you can potentially still lose opportunities to even utilize it in the long run. The higher speed tier only goes so far when M-Gallade is so pressured not to be touched due to its mediocre typing that is prone to a lot in the first place. It's simply more suited to B+ in where you have mons like Togekiss, Dragonite, and M-Heracross who have notable niches but their flaws can be apparent enough at times to where they won't always accomplish what needs to be done just from a comparison point looking at the A- and B+ ranked Pokemon in terms of effectiveness.
With that being said Idk about Celebi dropping. Baton Pass alone is a huge niche for it other than providing its offensive and defensive utility and makes the ease of using others like M-Diancie such as RP M-Diancie + Nasty Plot Celebi so basic that it can be mindless at times. Pretty neutral on it right now though.
I can Agree with this as hydra is pretty good right now. The only thing setting him back would be his speed if not running a choice scarf but hes ridiculously hard to switch into. Fairies as you say fear iron tail/flash cannon and the lo set just hits hard as hell. Not to mention he does have some level of unpredictability if you look at his move pool there are a few moves here and there that could make for nice lures. (although most are unviable. Looking at you headsmash)
Maybe. Hydreigon is a movepool god which can muscle past its checks with the proper prediction. Not to mention its unpredictability: you can't identify Hydra's set at team preview and if you guess wrong, it'll break your team. On the other hand, it has a LOT of checks in OU. Though it can hit them on the switch, it has a lot of trouble beating them one-on-one. (This is in regards to its LO set, of course.) Its Choice Scarf set makes for a great revenge killer, but its main attacking moves are not really spammable and its U-turn isn't a main source of damage. Basically, Hydreigon will excel in only one of one-on-one situations (Scarf) or on the switch (LO) while struggling with the other one.
Basically, while Hydreigon is very good at what it does and is dangerously unpredictable, it can really do only one thing at a time and there are too many common Pokemon that fuck it up. Granted, Hydra doesn't have to do EVERYTHING in order to be effective, but its poor matchup against a lot of the S through A ranks shouldn't be ignored. I think it should stay in B for the time being, but I don't have a very strong opinion on it, so I would not be totally opposed to a rise.
Clef shouldn't be S rank. It's good, it influences the meta, and it does a bunch of shit, but it's stats are shit. And that really holds it back. It needs to spam soft boiled to stay healthy which can often give free turns. This is neglecting the fact that clef just barely avoids the 2hkoes from a multitude of mons it's supposed to check. This means that any prior damage (which is usually only 10-15%) causes clef to die. Sure Magic guard helps with this but clef can't continuosly switch into volt switches or u turns.
Additionally, steel types are everywhere rn. Gross, Bisharp, Scizor, tran, etc plague the ladder and tours, and clef loses to all of them unless it has a specific coverage move that's different for each of them. And even then clef can't win. Add on the prevalence of spdef Talon and Zard x/y, and you have a liability against those mons. Yeah u can t wave but u wont always even have it.
Honestly clef should stay in a+ and never move from there. A good comparison is Talonflame (which id even argue is better than clef for a multitude of reasons). It does not compare to the power of Keldeo, gross, or Lando, and it's versatility is nowhere near as threatening as Malts. Yeah clef is splashable but that doesn't make it s rank. The only way I see this moving up is if the dominant steels in the tier get banned. And that's not happening.
Additionally, steel types are everywhere rn. Gross, Bisharp, Scizor, tran, etc plague the ladder and tours, and clef loses to all of them unless it has a specific coverage move that's different for each of them. And even then clef can't win. Add on the prevalence of spdef Talon and Zard x/y, and you have a liability against those mons. Yeah u can t wave but u wont always even have it.
Honestly clef should stay in a+ and never move from there. A good comparison is Talonflame (which id even argue is better than clef for a multitude of reasons). It does not compare to the power of Keldeo, gross, or Lando, and it's versatility is nowhere near as threatening as Malts. Yeah clef is splashable but that doesn't make it s rank. The only way I see this moving up is if the dominant steels in the tier get banned. And that's not happening.
A controversial rise, but I would like to see Rotom-Wash in A+
Reasoning: So you guys remember the school bus? How 9 times out of 10 it drove up at your stop at like the same damn time every day and took you to the same damn place on the same damn route? That's how I see Rotom-Wash. This thing doesn't sweep teams, it doesn't wall threats, but Rotom is just one hell of a pivot that's easy to use. The thing is, Washtom is such a background player that it never gets spotlight time. Like public transportation, you use it and forget about it (except in the case when something goes wrong like a Hydro Miss).
I think Rotom's effectiveness in a metagame should be judged on how well it can keep momentum--or how well it can switch into resisted hits (and then either Wisp, Hydro, or Volt-Switch out). Right now, I think Rotom is doing everything its expected to do. Having it on your team still gives you 5 great resists, 1 immunity, and 1 rare weakness.
Would be great if we could get some discussion on this. (My post is short since I don't think it'll happen)
Reasoning: So you guys remember the school bus? How 9 times out of 10 it drove up at your stop at like the same damn time every day and took you to the same damn place on the same damn route? That's how I see Rotom-Wash. This thing doesn't sweep teams, it doesn't wall threats, but Rotom is just one hell of a pivot that's easy to use. The thing is, Washtom is such a background player that it never gets spotlight time. Like public transportation, you use it and forget about it (except in the case when something goes wrong like a Hydro Miss).
I think Rotom's effectiveness in a metagame should be judged on how well it can keep momentum--or how well it can switch into resisted hits (and then either Wisp, Hydro, or Volt-Switch out). Right now, I think Rotom is doing everything its expected to do. Having it on your team still gives you 5 great resists, 1 immunity, and 1 rare weakness.
Would be great if we could get some discussion on this. (My post is short since I don't think it'll happen)
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Rotom-W to A+ i a nom I can get behind. It has some good versatility, being able to T-Wave and WoW along with a great typing giving it just 1 reasonably uncommon weakness (excluding mold breaker EQ). It has one of the best moves in the game in volt switch, as well as Hydro Pump to stop stuff grounds from using their immunity on it like they can V electrics like Zapdos (which rarely carries HP Ice iirc). It's the best defensive VoltTurner IMO, and needs to be in A+. It even has pain split as a clutch recovery move. It's also splashable, a good check to common threats like Talonflame, and all round better than the others of it's rank.
Don't really agree with this rise, Rotom-W isn't a reliable answer to most common stuff; Mega Metagross 2hkoes with zhb, Landorus with Focus Blast, it's a poor Keldeo check and Mega Altaria with Heal Bell (or without also works) easily counters/sets up on it. it's a decent pivot with good walling potential but I relaly don't feel like the meta is kind enough to it with it not standing up to top tier threats, ESPECIALLY in a tier like current OU where you need to cover as many threats as possible and every slot matters more than the last.
edit- o also forgot it has no recovery lol although this is obvious
edit- o also forgot it has no recovery lol although this is obvious
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Arguably, you could see the rise for Rotom-W, as it is the premier defensive pivot in this metagame, and while people say that it is just a one trick pony it has options, and everyone seems to forget that the Choice Scarf/Specs set exists. Trick Scarf/Specs is potent in it's own right and shouldn't be overlooked, but I will mention that the rise in usage of Serperior hurts it to a certain degree, and the lack of super reliable recovery sucks. Like only Pain Split or ChestoResto? Yeah kinda sucks. But being one of the most common birdspam checks for both physical and special attacking spectrums is kind of cool, and not a lot can smack it coverage wise with only having one weakness.
I don't exactly have a lot of time to make noms these days, so sorry for this being lackluster.
I don't exactly have a lot of time to make noms these days, so sorry for this being lackluster.
I don't really agree with the rotom-w rise. Sure, it does check a lot of things but the lack of reliable recovery, and a neutrality to SR and burn makes it really prone to being worn down. Like half of the stuff people try to switch it in to it just loses a chunk of HP or just gets slowly worn down until its capable of being KOed. CB Azu does a shit ton with play rough, mega gross 2HKOs after SR with zen headbutt, keldeo wears it down with scald and can eventually break through it with secret sword, landorus 2HKOs with sludge wave after SR, and it can't even safely switch in on mega lopunny.
In most cases you'll just find rotom-w just slowly taking chip damage and then eventually it can't even wall the stuff it's supposed to wall. It actually rarely even able to find turns to pain split, and even then it's not reliable. Being a pivot and a voltswitcher that can beat most ground-types is cool and all but not having reliable recovery for a defensive mon like rotom-w just kinda sucks.
In most cases you'll just find rotom-w just slowly taking chip damage and then eventually it can't even wall the stuff it's supposed to wall. It actually rarely even able to find turns to pain split, and even then it's not reliable. Being a pivot and a voltswitcher that can beat most ground-types is cool and all but not having reliable recovery for a defensive mon like rotom-w just kinda sucks.
When is Lando gonna hit 2 focus blasts in a row? Is a smart opp actually gonna unintentionally sack Lando by missing a FB against something that can OHKO? Probably not. Since when did non bulky Malt run heal bell, and those bulky Malts don't run any setup moves (unless cotton guard if ur unothodox). You can literately just pivot out of Malt anyway. DD Malt needs to be at +2 to 1 shot it, and gets burned before it gets there. Malt in no way counters/sets up on it, although Rotom admittedly doesn't have a great time V it.
Also, Rotom isn't meant to counter these, merely check. With calcs it does seem lackluster, but on the field you can't deal with it anywhere near as easily. I often look at my team when I have Lando-T or Keld out against Rotom-W, what do I switch in? All my physical mons get burned, if I don't switch I die and if all I can do is send Raikou in, who doesn't OHKO and gets worn down pretty fast, it can't check whatever it needs to later. That might go down to me having a poor Rotom matchup, but it's also to do with there is nothing that can reliably absorb both it's statuses on offense and still check what it needs. It's a soft check to most of the meta, and a great pivot. While it can't reliably keep switching in to everything, it's a soft check to most of the meta, and you can't really slap 1 mon (other than serp) on a team and say "I have a Rotom-W answer", and then again Serp hates T-Wave. The only foolproof counter there is is MSceptile, who is basically irrelevant and unsplashable due to being a mega, and all round sucks.
E @ Below: It really does check Bish:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 120-142 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 166-196 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can also stop it with a burn, although it does lose to Adamant LO/glasses +2 Knock Off (the latter needs rocks tho).
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lol.
Are you really going to use the accuracy argument for Focus Blast? It's easy to predict Rotom-W coming in versus threats that you force out and can't OHKO and hit it hard w/ Focus Blast. Not using this as an argument myself but Hydro doesn't have perfect accuracy either :/ I do agree that Rotom-W can be annoying by spreading status and pivoting into other mons but Mega Altaria is still a decent answer that can run Facade and completely walls it regardless (special variants don't really care about anything Rotom-W does) so it IS a solid answer. Lati@s also do a decent job and Rotom-W WILL get worn down easily over the course of the match as it can't really switch into most special threats reliably. "Checking" something really doesn't cut it when I could be using something like Latios that compresses a fast revenge killer, Keldeo counter/fighting check, and a Defogger all into one? I get that it's a good status spreader as well as a pivot which is why it's used, but having a check to all those mons doesn't really cut it, as if Rotom-W is your only Lando answer, it basically gets the equivalent of a free kill after coming in. It has a hard time against the latis (will o wisp is annoying but they force it out easily), can't really check bisharp, can't really check M-Lopunny and so on and so forth. It still leaves you weak to ALL those threats meaning that you have to account for them in a later stage of teambuilding or lolplzdontbringmlopunnyvsme.
edit- uhh I feel like I messed up on my bisharp point but taking about ~50% with your lefties gone after SR still seems bad to me
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A nitpick that I have is that you can't assume that Rotom-W will always be worn down to the point of uselessness over a match. Saving Rotom till endgame isn't some sort of impossible feat. If we're playing the theory game, then at max health, Rotom-W burns or checks the threats you listed.
lol don't use Focus Blast's accuracy as an argument. It is a risky move to make, but almost all Pokemon have their own risks to take, and relying on coverage that has accuracy issues is not a reason to bring something down (by that logic, why not drop Gengar, Zard Y, or Landorus-T?). Landorus should be glad that it gets Focus Blast, for it is a risk that has been proven for the course of two and a half generations to be a risk that is usually worth taking. I could understand the argument if Focus Blast was a primary STAB (main move to be spammed), but it is not. If hitting Rotom-W is of concern and you do not want to risk Focus Blast, Landorus-I also has Sludge Wave, which 2HKOs Rotom-W considering that Modest Landorus is a very viable nature to run.
I mean, it's not like Rotom has 30 base SpDef, it can run an effective specially defensive set, albeit not checking some formes of birdspam as well.
M-Gallade: A- > B+
Asked team earlier today thoughts on this placement. It was practically unanimous so this has been changed to reflect that.
On the topic of Rotom-W I actually talked with Sucker and others in the OU room and long story short with the points I was stating there earlier people sort of over estimate Rotom-W and what it's able to provide. If we're talking about the actual role it fulfills it is by no means an A+ ranked Pokemon as it's ability to grab momentum is reliant on not contending with the numerous wall-breakers that Rotom-W does not want to be staring down in the face. Teams are naturally built to handle Rotom-W without a very high second thought as it'll fall under the necessity of having Water and Electric resists which are more or less mandatory on any given team and these are easily implemented by taking into account some of the A ranked Pokemon alone such as Raikou and Keldeo. Rotom-W is something you would consider as a glue mon sort of like Hippowdon in where it has a variety of role compression starting with its defensive utility first. However with this being said glue mons don't necessarily mean that they establish themselves as a higher caliber in comparison to other threats in the meta-game if we're speaking on basic practicality. You look at the majority of A+ ranked Pokemon right now in the list and what you'll find are large team-building constraints to the meta and or some very fantastic Pokemon that hit the brink of top tier based on minuscule support or provide even more role compression than Rotom-W would ever hope for. By putting Rotom-W at A+ you're implying it's level of efficiency is on par to those such as Torn-T, Thundurus, M-Sableye, Latios, Talonflame, Clefable, and so on and I would be inclined to disagree for the reasons already stated. The increase in Torn-T as one prominent threat being seen now does create a bit more viability to Rotom-W however this viability is to make up for what I believe was a loss of effectiveness around the time Celebi started to gain a lot of usage among other unfavorable trends towards Rotom-W, which around that time should've been the period Rotom-W should've went to A-, if you want my personal perspective. It's perfectly in A.
Asked team earlier today thoughts on this placement. It was practically unanimous so this has been changed to reflect that.
On the topic of Rotom-W I actually talked with Sucker and others in the OU room and long story short with the points I was stating there earlier people sort of over estimate Rotom-W and what it's able to provide. If we're talking about the actual role it fulfills it is by no means an A+ ranked Pokemon as it's ability to grab momentum is reliant on not contending with the numerous wall-breakers that Rotom-W does not want to be staring down in the face. Teams are naturally built to handle Rotom-W without a very high second thought as it'll fall under the necessity of having Water and Electric resists which are more or less mandatory on any given team and these are easily implemented by taking into account some of the A ranked Pokemon alone such as Raikou and Keldeo. Rotom-W is something you would consider as a glue mon sort of like Hippowdon in where it has a variety of role compression starting with its defensive utility first. However with this being said glue mons don't necessarily mean that they establish themselves as a higher caliber in comparison to other threats in the meta-game if we're speaking on basic practicality. You look at the majority of A+ ranked Pokemon right now in the list and what you'll find are large team-building constraints to the meta and or some very fantastic Pokemon that hit the brink of top tier based on minuscule support or provide even more role compression than Rotom-W would ever hope for. By putting Rotom-W at A+ you're implying it's level of efficiency is on par to those such as Torn-T, Thundurus, M-Sableye, Latios, Talonflame, Clefable, and so on and I would be inclined to disagree for the reasons already stated. The increase in Torn-T as one prominent threat being seen now does create a bit more viability to Rotom-W however this viability is to make up for what I believe was a loss of effectiveness around the time Celebi started to gain a lot of usage among other unfavorable trends towards Rotom-W, which around that time should've been the period Rotom-W should've went to A-, if you want my personal perspective. It's perfectly in A.
I'm a bit late here, but blacklisting Shuckle is an insane idea. Shuckle became unviable due to changes in the OU metagame since ORAS, whereas the other blacklisted Pokemon have always been shit in Gen 6 and always will be. It's possible, though not likely, that the metagame will change back in its favor. Hell, we're suspect testing a spinblocker right now.
As for now, though, I agree that it should be unranked. At least Forretress can handle Mega Diancie with Gyro Ball, and can reclaim momentum with Volt Switch. Oh, and spin.
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