Dropping a Pokemon by a rank because of its limited capabilities is not always merited. If a Pokemon's limited capabilities are enough to push it up to a really high ranking, then so be it. Mega Man may be limited, but we have established that long ago, and it still sits at a high ranking. If you are going to nom it to drop, you would have to argue that the metagame is not favorable towards it, which is the exact opposite of the truth.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Don't realy care what happens to Mega Man but i think it should be noted that the popularity of mixed def hippo is a big hindrance to its performance as hippo shuts it down completely, even with with 2 layers of spikes + SR Mega man has only a 15% chance to 2hko standard mixed def hippo. And as long as hippo is alive, Mega Man cant do a thing, no volt switch, no damage, nothing he is just dead weight. The presence of Lopunny doesnt help either, both excel against offense, have the same speed tier and both are megas. Unless you realy need the volt switch aspect you will usually be better of running Lop.
I dont see how Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric are comparable. Yeah sure, they both are megas that terrorize offense w/ 135 speed. So what? That doesnt change the fact that they both have widely different team synergy and that they both pummel offense in completely different ways. Lop uses power and its bit of priority to beat offense, while Manectric uses momentum, its ability, and its coverage to. Yeah sure, they're loosely comparable, but loose strings are not enough to warrant Mega Manectric worthless and/or worse compared to Lop.
And if you want to play the whole "Mega Lop has momentum bc of Baton Pass!", so? It also doesnt have intimidate and a stab, decently strong attack to carry its momentum out with.
Basically, dont compare Lop and Mega Man too much bc they DO do different things. Also is the whole Hippo counters Mega Man thing ignoring that Hippo also counters Lopunny (unless its at like +1 but PuP isnt too big)?
And if you want to play the whole "Mega Lop has momentum bc of Baton Pass!", so? It also doesnt have intimidate and a stab, decently strong attack to carry its momentum out with.
Basically, dont compare Lop and Mega Man too much bc they DO do different things. Also is the whole Hippo counters Mega Man thing ignoring that Hippo also counters Lopunny (unless its at like +1 but PuP isnt too big)?
I disagree about Mega Manectric going to A+. If anything, I believe it could actually drop to A- for multiple reasons. Out of all the mega pokemon and out of all the offensive pokemon in the A tier, it has the most GSI (guaranteed switch ins). This means it has the most checks thats have no problem switching into it. It's unable to set up and it's limited to 1 moveset. It's got plenty of offensive checks such as Zard X, Mega Altaria, Lati twins, Kyurem-Black, Raikou and Tyranitar. It doesn't hit hard unless it's super effective, and I don't think it should be in the same rank as Mega Zard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Alakazam or Weavile. Those 4 are able to provide powerful offense and put a ton of pressure on opposing teams. Clefable and Heatran (2 of its checks) are among the most used mons right now, meaning most teams will have an answer to Mega Manectric. It can't do anything to setup sweepers except Volt Switch, giving the opponent a free turn to set up, and forcing Mega Manectric to rely on its teammates if you can still manage after the opponent sets up once. Since it has no recovery, hazards and status conditions can wear it out very quickly. It's also unable to 1HKO Tank Chomp (very high usage), meaning the opponent will get their rocks up, or Manectric will lose 80-90% of its health to EQ. On the other hand, its speed of 135 is fantastic, and it's ability is great, but as an offensive pokemon, it's not as great as the other offensive pokemon in the A tier. Being able to become set up fodder for 3 of the most dangerous mons in Mega Altaria, Clefable and Zard X or really anything with special bulk, and being easy to predict make it fall in comparison to the other offensive pokes in the tier. I'll put the checks below (got it from the checks compendium). Mega Manectric for A-
Yea Mega Manectric definitely has those flaws you mentioned, so yea i agree it shouldn't go to A+ . However Mega Manectric excels at beating Hyper offense and bulky offense ( like those builds with the Manaphy + AV Tornadus) and with volt switch it easily gathers momentum. It does kinda struggle with the Lati twins but it easily pivots out of them with a decently strong volt turn right into a pursuit trapper, and the problem is solved. Mega Manectric is indeed better than Raikou so i cant see them being in the same tier at A- , because Mega Manectric taking a mega slot is compensated by its better speed and coverage. Also in comparing it to Mega Gardevoir and Char Y is not the best example because those excel in breaking stall and defensively oriented balance teams. In comparing it to Mega Zam, Mega Zam also excels in breaking offense due to its great speed, but has unforgivable bulk making it die to almost all common priority in the tier which is a big handicap against offense which its supposed to beat, whereas Mega Manetric bypasses that flaw with intimidate , and also resists Scizors' bullet punch and Talonflames brave bird and threatens to ohko them back. Mega Zam gets worn down by hazards similarly since it loses Magic Guard , and of course cant pivot out of its checks. I did notice u said that you weren't too strong on it dropping to A -, but just pointing out a few advantages mega manetric has that should keep it in A.
I know that they aren't that comparable, that was more of a side note anyway. The main point is Hippo. And Lopunny has ways of getting around Hippo (Pup, Toxic, Baton pass to gain momentum), Mega Manetric doesnt.
You cant compare mega manectric to mega lopunny cause the first one its a one trick pony while mega lopunny its an offense destroyer with 2 perfect stab coverage moves (also fighting + normal>electric + fire + ice) with 2 free moveslots giving her the edge over manectric, also while volt switch its a strong momemtum move its pursuit trappable and ground types shut him down, baton pass its free momemtum and if u really want to kill hipo u can choose encore or PuP which is a good option for lopunny to face stall.
Eh, Baton Passing out of Hippo isnt really getting around it so much as avoiding it for another teammate to handle. The same can be done with a double switch, which while more risky, yields similar, if not the same, result. Also Toxic and PuP still dont necessarily beat Hippo, but yes, they can be a pain (Toxic moreso than PuP).
I can't see M-Manetric going anywhere really.
With blistering 135 speed he outspeeds some mayor threats right now like M-Metagross, Weavile and Torn-T.
Also, he always runs those four moves for a reason, why change something that works? Electric/Fire/Ice is a good coverage that works.
Also, don't campare M-Manetric to M-Lopunny, plz. It's like comparing M-Altaria and Clefable, because they are Fairies and mayor threats right now.
With blistering 135 speed he outspeeds some mayor threats right now like M-Metagross, Weavile and Torn-T.
Also, he always runs those four moves for a reason, why change something that works? Electric/Fire/Ice is a good coverage that works.
Also, don't campare M-Manetric to M-Lopunny, plz. It's like comparing M-Altaria and Clefable, because they are Fairies and mayor threats right now.
Gonna piggyback on Hollywood's Mega Scizor to s rank nom... You guys are seriously underrated this mon and it's versatility and deadliness.Id argue that bug and steel is the best typing you can have for THIS META, with all of mega scizors counters easiely accounted for in teambuliding (besides MAYBE zard x but I never had a problem with him on my mega scizor teams) As Hollywood said offensive sd still has more raw bulk then skarm... with one weakness. This is the most splashable mon in the meta that can be run as a defogger,support mon for stall,bulky sd,offensive sd,bulky u turner..
Also Im going to disagree with Dice here (dont kill me guys..) that if you're looking for momentum why even use mega scizor in the first place, thats not what its intended for... Mega scizor creates havoc on legit over 95 percent of the metagame, and can set up on most of the metagame also, creating aton of uncomfortable situations for your opponent
... Something with the typing and the raw power and ability to splash it almost wherever you want makes mega scizor MORE than worthy for s rank IMO. What cant mega scizor do well? Priority,power,tons of sets,typing,and of course its amazing bulk. It checks almost all of the major threats in the meta with LITTLE drawback.
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I'm sorry Olijolly. But it's pretty obvious majority of the people just don't see dragonite as an A- material. Almost everyone on the forums and the IRC channel said dragonite was good in B+ and that it shouldn't get a promotion. The advantages it has isn't enough to boost it to a tier filled with great pokemons. TBH, I rarely look at dragonite for a spot on my teams if I wanted a sweeper/DD. The Cb is very cool though but I don't think a "cool" set is enough to make a spot in A-.
Ok Mega Scizor is definitely one of the best mons in A+ rank right now. As you and others and said its a very potent blanket check on the meta, countering megagross, and is a reliable check (not counter) to the other s rank mons in clefable and mega altaria. Its move pool and power and defenses are great for the speed tier its in, and it has a very powerful priority move thanks to technician. And because scizor has an easy time setting up once its checks are gone bullet punch can easily clean through teams as it usually ends up getting multiple Sds thanks to its amazing bulk. However, it doesnt have the few final tools it needs to be S rank, using the other S rank as comparisons, and its push for S rank is being exaggerated.
Mega Scizor cannot get by a majority of its roadblocks like the other S rank mons can. Bulky chomp is either the most common mon or the second most common mon in OU, and it commonly runs fire blast in its free moveslot alongside stealth rock EQ and dragon tail. Scizor is pretty much walled by it to begin with and will get either worn down by it or get fire blasted. Mega gross is another mon that struggles with bulky chomp, but it has ice punch in its arsenal. Other notable counters that will in fact cripple scizor or knock it out are some of our OU fire types, such as char x( who uses it as setup fodder and is pretty significant to note) char y and talonflame. Now as u said these threats are somewhat "easy" to account for in supporting scizor because they all share a rather nasty weakness to Stealth rock, which is a valid point. however, these mons are still a stagnating presence for scizor and are rather common. Scizor's effectiveness in checking the fairies is also mitigated in that specs magnezone and scarf can easily trap it and kill it, which is pretty commonly paired with fairy types, for good reason. Scizor can get by this threat with super power yes, but its kind of a 50/50 depending on your scizor spread and your opponents Magnezone spread. Scizor also has superpower for heatran, but at the same time heatran also has a few tricks up its sleeve for beating scizor, because it can easily speed creep it unless its max speed jolly scizor, and even then scarf heatran is a thing, although not as common as it used to be. Other notable answers to mega scizor are mega manetric and zapdos who both resist either one or both of its stabs and can easily threaten it back with their fire coverage, and scizor can do little about it. Keldeo is also another common threat, threatening it with scald, and specs hydro pump ohkoes, and quagsire and skarmory pretty much stops scizor all together, versus something like the S ranked megagross, who shares some of these checks can easily get by them given the correct move pool. And even so, mega scizor lacks immediate power because bullet punch is relatively weak without a boost despite a monsterous 150 attack stat, and that combined with its low speed makes it easy for aforementioned checks and counters to force it out despite how good its bulk is.
To be frank, as Living So Zambian mentioned earlier, mega scizor does have a good matchup against many teams right now because of its typing granting it the ability to a large blanket check, and some of its success are indeed attributed to poor team building. A build with megagross a lati twin, a check with scald other than keldeo, and something like clefable will lose to scizor if it lacks any appropriate lure, such as hidden power fire latios, because a team like that will not lose to only scizor but other common steel types as well, particularly sand rush excadrill and bisharp who also sits in A+. So with that said Scizor should remain A+.
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I respect your opinion of course but Ive noticed you're using the same argument that everyone else is using.. with pokes like mega chomp (who have no recovery) scizor can just switch out..... with everything but mag if a on can beat it 1v1 scizor can just switch out to something that counters that etc etc.... Why aton of scizor teams run quag for char x, all the things scizor doesnt blanket check its team should cover, because there's such FEW THINGS that scizor doesnt blanket check
See thats the difference you are not getting. Dice and the other says scizor kills momentum without the u turn set for good reason. Because scizor cannot get by bulky chomp, bulky chomp will switchin, do huge passive damage with rough skin and rocky helmet. it cannot stay in and roost, and YOU will lose momentum since you forced to switch out. Mega Scizor and megagross, two steels that blanket check the meta, cant really be in the same tier despite have slightly different roles because megagross doesnt have to sack momentum to beat bulky chomp quagsire, and skarmory, since it can easily ice punch, grass knot, or thunder punch respectively.. And then here is the thing, char x is another candidate for S rank, and both scizor and char x and can lose to quagsire. But the difference is char x CAN easily get by quagsire with its outrage set, just like megagross gets by it with grass knot. Scizor requires more support to get by its usual checks, which is why megagross is in S and scizor in A +.
I get this but with mega scizor teams you dont NEED momentum because as hollywood said the thing checks everything... its so easy to build around and you can just switch.. no passive damage, what you did with quag you can do in scizors favor with a number of mons, just like mega gross
Ik what im saying seems simple but really its THAT SIMPLE!!. Why do you guys think the cune hippo scizor core gets recycled over and over again
Mega Scizor is not a dominant or defining force in the metagame. While current metagame trends make it qualities more appealing, Scizor is not particularly difficult to prepare for, especially given the high presence of Skarmory and bulky Garchomp, both of which screw Mega Scizor over. I really do not see it as a rank above Gengar or Zard X, both of which are very potent threats to account for, and both hold a significant amount of leverage over their checks due to how easy they can screw over their usual checks. Mega Scizor does not have that luxury, and is more of a glue-based Pokemon that is meant to fill in holes in a team, similar to what Garchomp does at the moment.
You could say that about Garchomp too, especially since Garchomp is very easy to build around at the moment, yet that is A+. Something like Mega Altaria or Mega Gross apply intense amount of pressure onto the opponent that Mega Scizor is not capable of. While I think Clefable in S Rank is an exaggerated stance, it is a lot more capable in fitting into teams than Mega Scizor does because of the significant amount of diversity it carries, something that Mega Scizor does not have either (it is using different variations of two different sets).
Yea but this debate is whether or not scizor should go to S rank, all you have proven is why its good in A+. Any mon can just switch, under that logic most of the A rank can be S rank... Its whether or not said mon doesnt have to sack momentum to get by its road blocks. The S rank is reserved for the best mons in the tier, those who can do their job and maintain momentum well because they easily adapt to what the meta throws at them. Like i said megagross can get by most of its roadblocks by itself, mega scizor is more limited, so it stays a rank below.
You can't beat it, so you just switch out is not a good argument. Being able to beat pokemon like Mega Diancie is great but once you lose the momentum against a pokemon like Heatran, chances are the team will be pressured again by Kyurem-B / Mega Diancie. Tankchomp is definitely a good example of a pokemon that pressures Mega Scizor. Mega Scizor without U-Turn against Mega Diancie can either hard switch so you keep the momentum, or try to hit the Diancie. If you set up, Fire Blast tankchomp forces you out, if you use Bullet Punch, you have 29% less HP. Add rocks and the damage you have taken from Mega Diancie and suddenly you are not a nice Mega Diancie switchin anymore. So next time you either need a free switch in against Diancie to Roost, or you need to play agressive and Roost against Diancie / Garchomp. These situations happen a lot with Mega Scizor and in the end you still need to play agressive to have opportunities to Roost. For the same reason I think Mega Venusaur deserves to stay A (and Mega Altaria deserves to stay OU): You can blanket check a lot of pokemon but when you consider other factors, such as hazards, scald burns and rough skin damage, you are too often forced to heal up unless you get a free switch in (and the momentum you gained will be gone anyway without U-Turn)
In this metagame where many games are decided by the fact that one setupsweeper or powerful wallbreaker only needs a single opportunity to break the opposing team, losing this momentum is crucial and will often lose you the match before you defeated that annoying Tankchomp or Heatran. And the big difference between Venusaur / Scizor / Altaria in this comparison is: How threatening can they still be if they still manage to break the annoying defensive pokemon. And the difference here is what makes Altaria S, Scizor A+ and Venusaur A.
Yea thats what I'm trying to get through. to reiterate , both megagross and mega scizor can lose momentum against bulky chomp. What makes megagross S rank is that he can ice punch it and ohko, while mega scizor has to switch out no matter what, unless u want to lose your mega scizor.
So what makes mega gross s rank and mega scizor not is that it can ice punch garchomp?
You ignored the other pointers as well as the other fellows arguments, so u cherry pick one singular argument out of context when i was talking directly to him there. Mega gross has the ability to bypass its counters, scizor cant for the most part.
Mega Metagross has higher Speed, higher bulk (uninvested), hits harder overall due to Tough Claws and higher power STABs, and has an easier time getting past its checks depending on what coverage move(s) it runs (Scizor doesn't really have coverage).
I really don't understand how Xatu isn't completely and utterly outclassed by espeon in every way imaginable. Defensively speaking, mono-psychic >>>>> psychic/flying due to SR weakness and flying type offering nothing of value beyond bug neutrality. Xatu's 65/70/70 defense is nearly identical to Espeon's 65/60/95 in terms of general crappyness, and Espeon's 130/110 offensive stats put Xatu's 95/95 offensive stats to shame. They both have reliable recovery in the form of roost/morning sun and the only meaningful coverage options Xatu has over espeon are flying STAB and heat wave. Also, defog and magic bounce are incompatable, not that it would be any good regardless.
Simply put, I cannot think of a single niche that Xatu has over Espeon in OU and thus Xatu should be unranked.
On a side note, I almost made a rant about how Uxie was petty much outclassed by Latios as a duel screens suicide lead, but then I remembered TR was a thing.
Simply put, I cannot think of a single niche that Xatu has over Espeon in OU and thus Xatu should be unranked.
On a side note, I almost made a rant about how Uxie was petty much outclassed by Latios as a duel screens suicide lead, but then I remembered TR was a thing.
Espeon gets baton pass though so I really don't think that's enough. Plus Xatu is rocks weak and flying stab is useless. Espeon is faster and stronger. Unless you are using feather dance cm stored power xatu it has literally no niche.
I don't know why people say scizor "blanket checks the whole meta" because that's a lie. I went through the matchups in my Scizor-Mega --> A post, and it most certainly does not belong in S for sure. One guy brought up the following mons as things scizor checks and look at what actually happens:
Altaria, clef: fire blast
Metagross: like i said usage is decreasing
Lando: 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO You only set up on bulky sets, sd uses YOU as set up fodder
Serperior has hp fire and kos at plus two, so if it all you check it only if you have bug bite/u-turn, and you don't counter it for sure. Latios, on the other hand, can ohko if rocks are up with hp fire.
I don't see how any of these things are being taken on with your scizor
I agree that you beat weavile, azu, gard, kube, and megagross, but that's only half the stuff you personally brought up, which will be skewed to support your argument. If you look at the meta as a whole there is actually no way it's beating 80% of it. It's not that good right now.
As you can see, the things people say it checks often beat it. Scizor's ability to check the meta is vastly overrated.
Also, thoughts on other mons:
Manectric should rise or Raikou should drop, the extra coverage and useful ability make it quite a bit better. Venu should rise, it's on par with scizor in terms of defensive ability. Char-X belongs in S, it's as good as Altaria barring the extra rocks weakness and it can bluff Char-Y. Chansey should drop because it is the inverse of splashable. Medicham is worse than Gallade, SD and knock make Gallade more threatening and Medicham's priority just isn't strong enough. SD makes up for less power, so Gallade still manages to shit on balance/stall. Celebi should drop or Mew should rise, and Tentacruel ought to drop. That's all.
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