The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[mtr]

Also, remember that it's now possible again to make teams full of dudes that are > base 100 speed, lessening the possibility of Salamence scoring a free KO or setup. Latias checked a lot of Pokemon like Zapdos, Jolteon, Celebi, Infernape, Gengar, (could revenge kill with Scarf) Azelf, etc. Now that Latias is gone, such Pokemon are far more viable, and this lessens the possibility of Salamence getting setups or KOes.

IMO, if your team wants to employ luxuries like choiced Earthquakes, you need to pay the price in having a reliable check on Salamence.

Also, you guys might wanna try an old gem from the Garchomp era, RT Gyara with Avalanche, which makes a very effective DDMence check due to Intimidate, taking only 36.6%-43.5% from Outrage. That's what I use on my stall team. Granted, MixMence takes it out (Draco Meteor does 66-78%), but MixMence is meant to be a stallbreaker, so whatever, and by then it's at -2 SAtk, -1 Atk. If your team can't deal with that, it's back to the drawing board.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I need to ask you... are you taking any hallucinogenic drugs? Let's take a look at what you said was a good set for Cresselia.

So, what can this set do, other than threaten Mence? Slowly bleed on me and die?

I mean, think about it. A +6 Ice Beam BARELY gets an OHKO off on a 4HP ALAKAZAM. For godsakes, a small rock can crumple an Alakazam. Cresselia is struggling to 2-3HKO the metagame... AT +6. At +1 he's hitting about as hard as a soothing breeze.

All in all, Cresselia sucks. Stop trying to make it relevant.

Second it. There's a lot of substance to use to make a pro-OU argument for mence, but Cress . . . isn't part of it . . .

That thing is about as good as Dragon Ball Evolution . . .

 

[TheValkyries]

The Salamence "counters" named (Cresselia and Sandstorm Regirock) are no where near impractical.

Yeah, too bad that they both don't have reliable recovery outside of Rest, which limits they're "viable" sets down to the RestTalking ones. Granted Curse Regirock has its uses, it still gets wrecked by STAB surfs even with a high special attack. And as for Cresselia. I showed you why it sucks already. It is no threat, and only PP stalls as it slowly dies.

I don't know why so many people say Cresselia is shit. Sure, Tyranitar and Scizor gives it a lot of trouble, but the fact that Mence absolutely requires TTar or Scizor to remove Cresselia already indicates that it needs more than "no support" already, and this is not to mention they can't guarantee Cresselia's demise either.

Ok, TTar and Scizor give more than "a little trouble" when they are in fact crippling Cresselia COMPLETELY. CB Tyranitar hits Cresselia at a minimum of 64% which add in SR being on the field that means that Cress will DIE as she switches back in the second time. That's literally not even counting if Mence hits Cress with an attack, because if Mence does, even Scizor can guarantee that Cress doesn't come back in.

As for the "no support" comment, you're just being ignorant. Neither Cresselia, nor Regirock are OU so they are by definition NOT a part of the Standard metagame.

Now, if we actually compare apples to apples, we know that Mence also has a large number of feasible checks. Jirachi, Metagross, bulky Waters, Bronzong, Scizor, faster revenge killers are all considered checks to Mence. Sure, they all risk getting killed by one of Mence's attacks, you could see that the list of checks that Mence has is a considerable amount bigger than the Ubers that you tried to point out.

Yeah, checks that also die to the thing they're checking. Wait a minute... Are they even checks at that point?

 

[Ouro]

+1 Salamance Naive 252 Atk holding a Life Orb only deals 63.4% - 75% with Outrage to Max HP/Max Def Suicune.

That means if Salamence predicts a switch and Dragon Dances while you switch in your Suicune, you will survive to retaliate with Ice Beam guaranteeing an OHKO on most versions of Salamence. How often do people run Yache Berry Salamence?

Oh and the Mixed Dragon Dancer fails to OHKO 252 HP Suicune dealing only 58.2% - 68.6% with Draco Meteor.


>.>

 

[shrang]

Yeah, too bad that they both don't have reliable recovery outside of Rest, which limits they're "viable" sets down to the RestTalking ones. Granted Curse Regirock has its uses, it still gets wrecked by STAB surfs even with a high special attack. And as for Cresselia. I showed you why it sucks already. It is no threat, and only PP stalls as it slowly dies.

Ok, TTar and Scizor give more than "a little trouble" when they are in fact crippling Cresselia COMPLETELY. CB Tyranitar hits Cresselia at a minimum of 64% which add in SR being on the field that means that Cress will DIE as she switches back in the second time. That's literally not even counting if Mence hits Cress with an attack, because if Mence does, even Scizor can guarantee that Cress doesn't come back in.

As for the "no support" comment, you're just being ignorant. Neither Cresselia, nor Regirock are OU so they are by definition NOT a part of the Standard metagame.

Yeah, checks that also die to the thing they're checking. Wait a minute... Are they even checks at that point?

Lol I'm being ignorant. I'll address your statements one by one. Firstly, CB TTar isn't the standard TTar set any more (Whoa, by your logic, it's shit because it isn't used, see the next paragraph). If we look at ScarfTar (Who IS the current standard), Pursuit does 54.5% damage maximum, so Cress can switch out and come back later. I'm interested in you say how Cress will die to SR upon next switch-in but you fail to apply the same argument to Mence as well. If Mence is forced out, it's pretty much going to die next switch in as well.

Oh, and what is this "Cresselia and Regirock are not OU and therefore not part of the Standard metagame" bullshit?? They are both allowed in OU, so they are part of the metagame. Everything that is allowed in OU is part of the OU metagame. Are you telling me any Pokemon that is not OU is shit in OU?? Conversely, are you telling everything that is OU is good in OU?? Would you tell me that Shaymin/Raikou/Sceptile are crap?? Would you tell me Ninjask is good?? I play Ubers too, so based on your logic, would you tell me Forretress and Scizor are crap there too?? Would you tell me Jynx is crap in UU?? OU/UU/NU are based on usage, and while usage is an indicator if a Pokemon is good or not, it certainly does not tell you the full story. I love the irony here on how you're saying I'm ignorant and you're telling me this.

Finally, checks can die to something they're checking, well duh. The definition of a check is a Pokemon who may not be able to switch into the Pokemon they're checking with 100% guarantee (Otherwise, it's a counter), but once they are in safely, they can beat that Pokemon. So yes, Jirachi is a check to Salamence, but not a counter. Get your definitions of checks and counters right. I love the irony - Oh wait, I've said that already.

 

[Baldafor]

+1 Salamance Naive 252 Atk holding a Life Orb only deals 63.4% - 75% with Outrage to Max HP/Max Def Suicune.

That means if Salamence predicts a switch and Dragon Dances while you switch in your Suicune, you will survive to retaliate with Ice Beam guaranteeing an OHKO on most versions of Salamence. How often do people run Yache Berry Salamence?

Oh and the Mixed Dragon Dancer fails to OHKO 252 HP Suicune dealing only 58.2% - 68.6% with Draco Meteor.


>.>

So, if a MixMence Draco Meteors as you switch to Suicune, it's dead. Okay, that's great.

I did the damage calc of a +0 Dragon Dance Salamence vs. Suicune, which is 41.8% - 49.3%. After the Leftovers recovery, there is a fair chance that it would be a 2HKO after Rocks with those numbers (32.3%). Sandstorm takes that up to 74%.

I dunno, I don't like those odds myself. I don't think that's fair.

 

[ginganinja]

I mean, think about it. A +6 Ice Beam BARELY gets an OHKO off on a 4HP ALAKAZAM. For godsakes, a small rock can crumple an Alakazam. Cresselia is struggling to 2-3HKO the metagame... AT +6. At +1 he's hitting about as hard as a soothing breeze.

All in all, Cresselia sucks. Stop trying to make it relevant.

Cressilia hits Salamence for 78.55% - 93.05% with an Ice Beam with no boosing anything, no Evs, no items, no boosting natures...nothing. So, according to you. Salamence gets KO'ed with SR............ by a soothing breeze?

I have to agree largely with Shrang. Cressilia is one of the few pokemon that take take a few or Saamence's attacks. Sure it says something about how powerful Mence is if we are commenting on a non OU (ie most used pokemon) to be used as a Salamence counter but its true that cress can stand up to Salamence. It can also set up a Reflect which limits the amount of damage it takes from Pursuit.

Have a Nice Day!

 

[Baldafor]

Are you telling me any Pokemon that is not OU is shit in OU?? Conversely, are you telling everything that is OU is good in OU?? Would you tell me that Shaymin/Raikou/Sceptile are crap??

Yes, yes, and yes. Otherwise, everyone would use them.

If everyone plays to win, of course. I assume you have seen the usage statistics on the Suspect ladder. It clearly shows a massive decrease in the "noob" pokemon you mention, like Ninjask and Electivire. Why? Because only serious players who care about the metagame play on the Suspect ladder.

All the dummies that think Baton Pass teams are the best and Shuckle is an indestructible wall play the regular OU ladder since they don't really care about competitive battling.

If you look at the highest rated teams, they are devoid of these "noob" pokemon, but are also devoid of the UU/NU pokemon as well.

If Raikou was good enough, it would be OU. People just aren't using it because it doesn't win games, and even the noobs that think Raikou IS good enough don't bring that number up enough to make them OU.

Sure, the pokemon that are UU and below are alright, there are just better pokemon to put into those team slots.

 

[Ice-eyes]

All this theorymon isn't really going anywhere. Non-OU counters aren't really relevant to the Salamence argument. You can throw damage calcs about all you want, but the fact is that certain factors in OU HAVE made Cresselia unplayable to the extent that it does not make the cut-off. Salamence is dominating the metagame at the moment - if it was a viable counter in the context of what's used, then its usage would be a lot higher than 2.59% (May stats).

There's a lot to be said for empirical evidence.

 

[ginganinja]

Yes, yes, and yes. Otherwise, everyone would use them.

If everyone plays to win, of course. I assume you have seen the usage statistics on the Suspect ladder. It clearly shows a massive decrease in the "noob" pokemon you mention, like Ninjask and Electivire. Why? Because only serious players who care about the metagame play on the Suspect ladder.

All the dummies that think Baton Pass teams are the best and Shuckle is an indestructible wall play the regular OU ladder since they don't really care about competitive battling.

If you look at the highest rated teams, they are devoid of these "noob" pokemon, but are also devoid of the UU/NU pokemon as well.

If Raikou was good enough, it would be OU. People just aren't using it because it doesn't win games, and even the noobs that think Raikou IS good enough don't bring that number up enough to make them OU.

Sure, the pokemon that are UU and below are alright, there are just better pokemon to put into those team slots.

I just wanted to clarify a few things. The pokemon determined in the OU metagame is based on Usage. Usage however is directly influenced my the current Metageme. This means that pokemon may not be OU due to them not havig viable uses in the current Metagame. Cress was OU put slipped when Scizor and Tyaritar increased in Popularity. Also it was not needed defensively as much since Blissey and Latias could take special hits, the latter also served as a check to Salamence. Garchomp was also gone which was perhapes a dominant reason why it stayed in OU for a while.

Cress is capiable in OU now because it is an excellent check to Salamence. Latias is gone and Cress can be used in the OU metagame more viably. Just because a pokemon is not OU does not make it shit. It usually means that it is outclassed or its niche role is no longer viable/needed. I am not sure if Electivire was always bad, but I do know that the popular ghost Rotom (its OU forms) further dereased its viablity.

I am getting off topic really but I disagree with the sweeping statement that "becasue a pokemon is not OU it is shit". SUre in some cases (currently Luvdisk and CO)" this is true but the main reason why many pokemon are not OU is because the Metagame has shifted too much.

EDIT @ Ice Eyes

You are correct like I stated earier. The very fact that we are discussing Cressilia as a viable check for Salamence really reflects Salamences's power and the threat it brings to many players teams. Its also important to remeber that Latias was a good check to Salamence when Cressilia was OU, not that Latias is gone perhapes a new niche has opened up for it?

Not to meantion that Latias was still used on the Standard ladder in the may Statistics (12.5%). It will be interesting to see Cressilias usage in Junes statistics when you can see the impact of Salamence on the metagame without Latias

Have a Nice Day!

 

[shrang]

If everyone plays to win, of course. I assume you have seen the usage statistics on the Suspect ladder. It clearly shows a massive decrease in the "noob" pokemon you mention, like Ninjask and Electivire. Why? Because only serious players who care about the metagame play on the Suspect ladder.

Yes, I have seen the stats for Suspect, and this illustrates my point that "OU" are not necessarily the best, so you can't just brush aside Cresselia or even for that matter Regirock, because while they aren't THAT good, they're not the utter crap that the pro-Uber people are making them out to be. It's also kind of interesting how you're pointing out the massive decrease in E-vire and co while ignoring how Shaymin is #21, which clearly indicates that Shaymin is not crap. This again illustrates my point that BL and under Pokemon are easily viable, so discounting something like Cresselia, who is actually not a bad all-round check to a lot of threats (Gyarados, Infernape, Salamence, Dragonite, Lucario) as a feasible counter to Salamence is just silly.

 

[idpersona]

Sorry man but Cresselia IS shit.Sandstorm=cresselia is worthless.Its only redeeming factor is being able to take various forms of massive hits noone else can,aka salamence.

 

[Objection]

Sorry man but Cresselia IS shit.Sandstorm=cresselia is worthless.Its only redeeming factor is being able to take various forms of massive hits noone else can,aka salamence.

And why does Sandstorm automatically make Cresselia useless?

 

[kokoloko]

And why does Sandstorm automatically make Cresselia useless?

Because Cress loses it's reliable recovery. I disagree with it, but thats what he meant.

Anyway, I had relegated myself to not posting in this thread again because it was turning into a shit-throwing contest, but seeing so many horrible arguments makes me want to interfere. Seriously, Cresselia is a bad pokemon in OU, however it's nowhere near as bad enough as some pro-Uber people make is out to me. Not that I would ever touch Cress, but it does have its uses outside of checking Salamence, such as checking/countering a fuckload of the metagame (yeah, that's just horrible).

"If it is not OU, it is crap." What kind of shit is that? Arguments like this actually hurt the pro-Uber side because it makes us look retarded. It's almost as bad as the people who were saying shit like "No!!!! Salamence is OU because its not a legendary!!!" a few pages back.

 

[Zelrio]

Off-topic, but when do we plan to review Breloom? Spore + Substitute + Focus Punch is far more broken than anything Salamence has to offer. Breloom's article even says that Breloom has no definitive counter, unlike Salamence.

Because Cress loses it's reliable recovery. I disagree with it, but thats what he meant.

Anyway, I had relegated myself to not posting in this thread again because it was turning into a shit-throwing contest, but seeing so many horrible arguments makes me want to interfere. Seriously, Cresselia is a bad pokemon in OU, however it's nowhere near as bad enough as some pro-Uber people make is out to me. Not that I would ever touch Cress, but it does have its uses outside of checking Salamence, such as checking/countering a fuckload of the metagame (yeah, that's just horrible).

"If it is not OU, it is crap." What kind of shit is that? Arguments like this actually hurt the pro-Uber side because it makes us look retarded. It's almost as bad as the people who were saying shit like "No!!!! Salamence is OU because its not a legendary!!!" a few pages back.

Yet it's amazing that this is your best argument you've posted yet.

 

[Game Freak201]

Posting this to agree with the fact that just because a pokemon isn't OU doesn't mean it's not part of the metagame. Is such pokemon like Uxie and Shaymin irrelevant to the metagame?

I would also like to remind people not to rely completely on the current usage statistics since Latias just left OU. Keep in mind that some changes may have been a result of Latias leaving rather than the absence/presence of Mence.

 

[Shizzle]

@Zelrio, thats a joke right? Celebi completely destroys it.

 

[Game Freak201]

@Zelrio, thats a joke right? Celebi completely destroys it.

How does Celebi destroy it? At best, it can kinda check it. You do realize that Natural Cure forces you to switch out your Celebi if it switches onto Spore. The article even mentions that Breloom will win the Stall war against Celebi since Focus Punch has more PP than Recovery. The definition of a counter is that it can switch into a pokemon 100% of the time and always force it out or kill it. Celebi fails to do this due to Spore.

 

[capefeather]

Wow, seriously? Breloom? You're now comparing Breloom's power to Salamence's? ...Seriously? Did people forget that Breloom is walled by Flying types? That's just one of many reasons it's not tearing up the top 10.

 

[CRASHiC]

Breloom only has no "counter" because of Spore putting them to sleep. Honchcrow is a great check to Breloom thanks to Insomnia, or even a counter if you can predict the Spore. Banette can also counter him.

 

[bonk]

How does Celebi destroy it? At best, it can kinda check it. You do realize that Natural Cure forces you to switch out your Celebi if it switches onto Spore. The article even mentions that Breloom will win the Stall war against Celebi since Focus Punch has more PP than Recovery. The definition of a counter is that it can switch into a pokemon 100% of the time and always force it out or kill it. Celebi fails to do this due to Spore.

Then don't let breloom put your Celebi to sleep. If you want an example of a counter that can switch in on it's spore, Houchkrow can be fun =P With sleep clause in effect, all you need is to choose something as sleep fodder.

 

[capefeather]

Yeah, the problem with interpreting sleep as "there you go nothing can counter it" is that you can only do that once in this ruleset.

 

[CRASHiC]

I think we should test Parasect, I mean, he doesn't have a counter, and he does pretty well in Uber play.

 

[Quataaaa]

Yes, I have seen the stats for Suspect, and this illustrates my point that "OU" are not necessarily the best, so you can't just brush aside Cresselia or even for that matter Regirock, because while they aren't THAT good, they're not the utter crap that the pro-Uber people are making them out to be.

I would actually argue that Cresselia is dominant in OU when used right.

It can wall the SHIT out of opposing teams. It can support its own team.
And I've had incredibly success with calm mind/psychic/hp fighting/twave or ice beam cresselia. If you give that thing a modest nature and 252 special attack ev's and leftovers... and 252 hp evs... it has an incredible combination of bulk and power. It can actually sweep and wall at the same time (after a few calm minds). Psychic hits for neutral a lot in ou, and hp fighting just obliterates ttar. And they are all scarfed now a days, and scarfartars pursuit does nothing if you stay in. True, the cresselia I just described, and all cresselia for the matter, lose to scizor, but ok that's one poke that it gets destroyed by. and magnezone covers cress beautifully in this regard.

 

[Shizzle]

@Quataaa, yes Cresselia is actually a really good pokemon in terms of stats, but once you put it into the metagame, rampaging with Scizors and Tyranitar, you are not getting very far. Because of this, Cresselia is forced to run a very physically defensive set, allowing Gengar to hurt it, badly.

@Game Freak 201, I didn't feel that it was even worth arguing, so I kept it a short post, and the amount of turns your asleep don't count for PP IIRC.