Gen 5 Ubers Generation 5 Viability Ranking

[Theorymon]

Me and Melee Mewtwo made a few edits to the old Generation 5 viability list, but otherwise, you know what to do!

We're still accepting write-ups for each Pokemon, explaining its role and why it is where it is. Including revamps for some of these old ones that aren't much good anymore.

Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.

S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

• 
  (Arceus-Ghost)
  Hide

  Boasting perfect coverage and ridiculous versatility, Arceus-Ghost is a threat that every team needs to prepare for. Its potency is only compounded by its ability to spinblock, allowing it to switch in on opponents like Forretress and Excadrill and gain momentum while preventing a spin. That said, Arceus-Ghost's real power comes in its versatility; this is why it's so hard to counter. Defensive counters to the common Calm Mind set are often massacred by a Swords Dance set, and vice versa. Even more offensive checks to certain offensive sets, like Tyranitar, are destroyed by a defensive set, smacking an unsuspecting opponent with Will-O-Wisp and effectively neutering them for the rest of the match.

• 
  (Kyogre)
  Hide

  The undisputed king of Ubers. Kyogre's stats, movepool, and ability all make it a very influential Pokemon. Rain heavily influences the metagame, making Steel-types harder to kill, causing Thunder to be everywhere, enabling niche Pokemon such as Swift Swimmers, and empowering Kyogre's absurd Water Spout. Kyogre can act as a potent wallbreaker with a Choice Specs set; Water Spout can OHKO or 2HKO a great number of Pokemon (even resists), and many stall teams will use Pokemon specifically to handle Choice Specs Kyogre. Kyogre can also act as a capable revenge killer and cleaner with a Choice Scarf set. Answers to one Kyogre set might not stack up well against other Kyogre sets, and every team needs answers to both Scarf and Specs. Kyogre is versatile and can still fill other roles as well, such as a paralysis lure or a bulky RestTalk set.

A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

High

• 
  (Arceus-Normal)
  Hide

  Arceus-Normal is a force to be reckoned with. With high stats of 120 across the board along with a diverse movepool, Arceus-Normal is a powerful, metagame-defining Pokemon. Its most well-known set is known as Extremekiller; with 120 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority in ExtremeSpeed, Arceus can single-handedly decimate whole teams without a worry of being revenge killed. In fact, Pokemon gain niches in Ubers simply for being able to resist ExtremeSpeed and outpace Arceus. Its excellent coverage options complement its sweeping prowess. Arceus can also serve as a powerful physical wall who can take repeated onslaughts from many Pokemon.
• 
  (Dialga)
• 
  (Genesect)
  Hide

  Arguably the best scarfer in the Ubers tier, Genesect sees use on both offensive and defensive teams. With Download, Genesect's U-Turn packs a punch; offensive teams appreciate the instant momentum and pressure that Genesect provides. Likewise, Iron Head and Ice Beam enable Genesect to quickly switch from revenge killing to cleaning. Genesect's typing allows it to switch in on attacks from Mewtwo, Arceus-Grass, Kyurem-W, Darkai, and others and deliver a powerful blow with U-Turn or one of its coverage moves. It also allows to be one of the only Pokemon consistently able to revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza.
• 
  (Giratina-O)
• 
  (Groudon)
  Hide

  As the sun-bringing behemoth it is, Groudon has a lot to live up to in the Ubers metagame. No worries, because Groudon is easily one of the most reliable Pokémon in the game; it will certainly not dissapoint. Its ability Drought fuels a whole spectra of teams, making monster such as Reshiram and Ho-oh almost impossible to switch in to, as well as weakening Kyogre's Water STAB. Common sets include the defensive support set, which is a reliable way to phaze out the dreaded ExtremeKiller Arceus at least once per game, and has the added benefit of having the invaluable move Stealth Rock by default. There is more, however. As Groudon has the strongest Earthquake in the game, it can deal tremendous damage with offensive sets utilizing Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or both.
• 
  (Latias)
  Hide

  Say hello to what is hands down one of the best Kyogre answers in the game. With Soul Dew granting her great special bulk and special attack, along with high Speed and Levitate, Latias makes for a great offensive pivot. She can use her good special movepool to its fullest effect, with moves such as Draco Meteor, Thunder, and Grass Knot in order to blast holes into opposing teams, using her bulk to stand out from her brother Latios. Latias can even take the more defensive approach and utilize Calm Mind in a defensive manner, with great special bulk and power giving her the ability to tank a myriad of special attacks. While her weaknesses to Ice, Dragon, Dark, Bug, and Ghost and middling physical bulk are a pain, Latias is still a top threat in Ubers.

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Fighting)
• 
  (Darkrai)
  
• 
  (Deoxys-A)
  
• 
  (Deoxys-S)
  Hide

  Deoxys-S, armed with an excellent movepool and a blistering Speed stat, is an ideal lead for offensive teams seeking to quickly establish entry hazard support and then make use of offensive pressure to win the match. However, Deoxys-S's fairly disappointing defenses and lack of offensive presence mean that it works best as a suicide lead (as any decently powerful move will knock it to its Focus Sash). Access to Stealth Rock and Spikes combined with its unrivaled speed tier mean Deoxys-S will often ensure that the opponent's Pokemon will pay dearly for every switch. Furthermore, a plethora of support options, including Magic Coat, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick and Fire Punch allow it to get past some of its conventional checks/counters, such as Forretress and set-up sweepers. Though running Deoxys-S often means that the user will essentially begin each match down 5-6, this should not discourage players from using Deoxys-S, as despite its faults, it has the ability to reliably fulfill its role (clutter the battlefield with shit), and if the hazards do their job, they will usually more than make up for the deficit.
• 
  (Ferrothorn)
• 
  (Forretress)
• 
  (Ho-Oh)
• 
  (Latios)
• 
  (Mewtwo)
• 
  (Palkia)
  
• 
  (Rayquaza)
• 
  (Skarmory)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Grass)
• 
  (Arceus-Ground)
• 
  (Arceus-Steel)
  
• 
  (Excadrill)
• 
  (Omastar)
  Hide

  Omastar is a very dangerous Pokemon in Ubers, thanks to its powerful ability Swift Swim. A Modest Omastar can outrun and OHKO Mewtwo and Darkrai with Surf or Hydro Pump, and Shaymin-S with Ice Beam. Its Rock typing also allows it to win one on one with ExtremeKiller Arceus so long as rain is up. Shell Smash gives Omastar a way to double its Special Attack and Speed. If it gets off a smash in the rain and Omastar has hazard support, it can sweep entire teams. However, getting off a Smash is not always easy, as it usually needs to come in on a choice-locked Ice Beam or Fire Blast. Bluffing a revenge kill is also an option, though this requires the opponent to switch out, which will not always happen. Its mediocre typing gives it undesirable weaknesses to Electric, Fighting, Grass, and Ground type moves, making it easy to kill Omastar if you can get a hit on it. Finally, though Omastar isn't useless in sand due to the special defense boost it gets there, it really needs rain to be up to pose a significant threat. All in all, Omastar can be devastating if you are good at predicting.
• 
  (Tyranitar)

B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

High

• 
  (Arceus-Rock)
• 
  (Gliscor)
• 
  (Heatran)
• 
  (Jirachi)
• 
  (Kabutops)
• 
  (Landorus-T)
• 
  (Terrakion)
• 
  (Zekrom)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Dark)
• 
  (Arceus-Water)
• 
  (Blaziken)
• 
  (Giratina)
  Hide

  Access to a Ghost-typing, dual base 120 Defenses, a gigantic base 150 HP stat combined with valuable resistances to Water-, Fire-, Electric-, and Grass-type moves makes Giratina the bulkiest spin blocker in the game! This allows it to run both a physically defensive set that can wall Ho-Oh lacking Life Orb and specially defensive spread that allows it to become one of the few Pokemon that can absorb Kyogre's Rain and Choice Specs boosted Water Spout! Its walling capabilities ensure that no team is disappointed with its performance. It can even take advantage of its enormous bulk to run a decent Calm Mind set and try to sweep. What's keeping it from reaching S rank though? The answer is simple; it can't hurt anything. Twin base 100 offenses are nothing pretty to glance at, and by completely investing in defensive, it becomes hard for Giratina-a to defeat its foes. The only way for Giratina-a to really kill anything, is if a lot of hazards are present, only then will it be able to spam Dragon Tail or Roar and weaken a team. This gives it problems against Rapid Spin users like Forretress and Tentacruel, as they can just setup entry hazards in front of Giratina as they know it can't do anything to them but use Dragon Tail or burn them. To add to the pain, Giratina lacks reliable recovery outside of Rest, and its Dragon-typing makes it weak to the common Draco Meteors and Ice Beams that fly around in the tier, which takes a toll on its bulk. This isn't enough to stop Giratina though. Its one of the few users of Resttalk in Ubers as it can actually survive most of the time to wake up and use Rest again. Its Specially Defensive spread is strong enough to tank even a super effective Draco Meteor from most Dragons in the tier should it not be boosted by Life Orb! There is no wall that can tank hits like Giratina, and if there is they lack the Ghost-typing that prevents Rapid Spin.
• 
  (Hippowdon)
• 
  (Kingdra)
• 
  (Kyurem-W)
• 
  (Shaymin-S)
  
• 
  (Tentacruel)
• 
  (Tornadus-T)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Psychic)
  
• 
  (Chansey)
• 
  (Cloyster)
  Hide

  Cloyster's lead Shell Smash set provides invaluable support to offensive teams in need of an answer to lead Deoxys formes. It the only spinner that can reliably defeat the Giratina's, paving the way for a potential spin. After a smash, Closyter will possess enough speed to outrun the entire unboosted metagame, including Deoxys-S. Though Icicle Spear is typically the only offensive move Cloyster uses, it possesses good power after a Smash and can OHKO a number of Pokemon at +2, such as Palkia and Darkrai. Alternatively, Cloyster can also comfortably fit Spikes or Toxic Spikes onto its set to provide hazard support. Because of its ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field early in the game, it has a valuable niche on Sun teams that often uses Pokemon weak to rocks, such as Ho-Oh and Reshiram. Unfortunately, its pitiful special bulk means that even resisted special attacks will threaten to OHKO it, forcing lead Cloyster to run Focus Sash and gimping its power somewhat. Cloyster can attempt to run a Shell Smash sweeping set, but it's very inconsistent and outclassed by Omastar in most cases. It is also somewhat predictable and is near useless mid-to-late game. With that said, Cloyster's utility make it a solid consideration for any offensive Sun team.
• 
  (Deoxys-D)
• 
  (Froslass)
  
• 
  (Garchomp)
• 
  (Tornadus)

C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

High

• 
  (Abomasnow)
  
• 
  (Arceus-Electric)
• 
  (Arceus-Dragon)
• 
  (Espeon)
  
• 
  (Blissey)
  
• 
  (Lugia)
• 
  (Sableye)
• 
  (Salamence)
  Hide

  One might initially question the use of Salamence in Ubers due to his relatively subpar offensive stats compared to the many other Dragons lurking about in the tier. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his wings to give him a chance in Ubers. For one, he has a solid speed tier of 100, outspeeding all those base 90s, 95s, and Genesect, as well as speed tying with Palkia. Most importantly though, Dream World blessed him with an incredible ability in Moxie. This makes him a vicious Choice Scarf user, as every kill he gets will only make him stronger making him tough to stop. He also can try his hand at a Dragon Dance set, making use of Intimidate to give him more opportunities to set up. Unfortunately, Salamence still has his rather subpar offensive stats. As such, He can't use a mixed set some other Ubers Dragons can, giving him issues with breaking through physically bulky Pokemon without a boost. He also faces big competition with other Dragons such as Palkia as a Choice Scarfer and Rayquaza as a Dragon Dance user. Still, Salamence can still prove to be a worthy asset to a team should he be used to his advantages. Salamence has also been specifically used as a partner to Rayquaza, with one loosening up the other's checks and counters.
• 
  (Scizor)
  
• 
  (Shiftry)
• 
  (Thundurus)
• 
  (Victini)
• 
  (Wobbuffet)
• 
  (Xatu)

Mid

• 
  (Arceus-Flying)
• 
  (Arceus-Poison)
  
• 
  (Beartic)
  
• 
  (Cresselia)
• 
  (Gastrodon)
  
• 
  (Kyurem-B)
• 
  (Landorus)
• 
  (Ludicolo)
• 
  (Magnezone)
  
• 
  (Mamoswine)
  
• 
  (Reshiram)

Low

• 
  (Arceus-Ice)
• 
  (Bisharp)
  Hide

  Besides the fact that Bisharp looks like a total badass, it does have a trick going for it in the trenches of Ubers. With a relatively strong 125 Attack, Swords Dance, and STAB priority Sucker Punch, Bisharp can make for a force to be reckoned with. Dark STAB is quite good, and with a Steel typing granting it many resistances, it can grab numerous opportunities to set up. It also has Low Kick to dent Steel-types, which is a plus. But as it is, Bisharp is painfully slow, and when combined with how incredibly unreliable Sucker Punch is, some faster opponents can really be an annoyance and take advantage of its presence. A nasty 4x weakness to Fighting does not help its case, and Pokemon such as Arceus-Fighting and Terrakion can take advantage of that.
• 
  (Gorebyss)
  
• 
  (Heracross)
• 
  (Jynx)
• 
  (Keldeo)
  
• 
  (Manaphy)
• 
  (Qwilfish)
• 
  (Smeargle)

D Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed. When considering these Pokémon, Make sure they preform a role that is NEEDED for your team, and not a role that another Pokémon can do better. New Players, STAY AWAY from these Pokémon, they aren't very good, only experts or ladder trolling teams will have a use for these.

• 
  (Gyarados)
• 
  (Hydreigon)
• 
  (Arceus-Fire)
• 
  (Arceus-Bug)
• 
  (Bronzong)
• 
  (Deoxys)
  Hide

  Outclassed is the perfect word to describe Deoxys. While it has good offensive stats comparable to Rayquaza, Deoxys-A is a better pokemon to use offensively, as it has better offensive stats and the loss of bulk doesn't matter. Deoxys-S does the whole entry hazards thing better due to it's higher speed and better defenses. Deoxys's only real niche is as an offensive dual screener set.
• 
  (Ditto)
• 
  (Jumpluff)
  
• 
  (Metagross)
• 
  (Thundurus-T)
  
• 
  (Venusaur)
• 
  (Victreebel)
  
• 
  (Whimsicott)

F Rank
Absolute jokes. They are put on display to warn against unexplainable trends. Simply put, these Pokemon shouldn't ever be used on a serious team.

• 
  (Charizard)
  Hide

  To put it bluntly, Charizard is a horrible Pokemon in Ubers. While I know it may be your favorite starter and all, Charizard has simply too many flaws to be of any use in Ubers. Being a Fire-type in a metagame infested with Kyogre is not good; and it is not going to be able to do much damage to the king of Ubers. Charizard also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and combined with the residual damage from Solar Power, it is simply too easy to wear down. Charizard is also sorely outclassed by Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of who have legitimate ways to damage Kyogre and qualities to mitigate that Stealth Rock weakness. Always consider your other options before using Charizard. There are many.
• 
  (Shedinja)

 

[Hack]

Rofl @omastar being higher than Kabu.

Also wth is Skarm doing in mid A, it's honestly not that great in the meta (esp with ekiller not being s). Ferro also a tad high, fightceus/sun/mixray rising in popularity etc. Otherwise p cool, ill comment more later.

 

[Sweep]

Cloyster

Hide

Cloyster's lead Shell Smash set provides invaluable support to offensive teams in need of an answer to lead Deoxys formes. It the only spinner that can reliably defeat the Giratina's, paving the way for a potential spin. After a smash, Closyter will possess enough speed to outrun the entire unboosted metagame, including Deoxys-S. Though Icicle Spear is typically the only offensive move Cloyster uses, it possesses good power after a Smash and can OHKO a number of Pokemon at +2, such as Palkia and Darkrai. Alternatively, Cloyster can also comfortably fit Spikes or Toxic Spikes onto its set to provide hazard support. Because of its ability to keep Stealth Rock off the field early in the game, it has a valuable niche on Sun teams that often uses Pokemon weak to rocks, such as Ho-Oh and Reshiram. Unfortunately, its pitiful special bulk means that even resisted special attacks will threaten to OHKO it, forcing lead Cloyster to run Focus Sash and gimping its power somewhat. Cloyster can attempt to run a Shell Smash sweeping set, but it's very inconsistent and outclassed by Omastar in most cases. It is also somewhat predictable and is near useless mid-to-late game. With that said, Cloyster's utility make it a solid consideration for any offensive Sun team.

Arceus-Psychic

Hide

At first, one might question the viability of Psychic Arceus in a tier with so many quality Psychic types available. In particular, Latias carves a nice niche as a Psychic type that can check prominent threats such as Kyogre while still being very threatening. However, Psychic Arceus has tools as its disposal that differentiate itself from the pack. Arceus's access to Will-O-Wisp and 120/120 physical bulk enable it to check physical attackers more easily than Latias and Deoxys-D can. Much like Mewtwo and Deoxys-D, Arceus also lacks a second typing, limiting the number of weaknesses the opponent can exploit. Because of this, Pokemon such as Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, and others that Psychic Arceus is used to check cannot bypass Arceus with coverage moves. Unfortunately, Psychic Arceus possesses very little offensive presence and is prone to having hazards set up on it if it lacks Magic Coat. It also can be ruined by taunt users such as Stalltwo and Sableye and takes up a valuable Arceus slot. Overall, Psychic Arceus checks enough prominent threats to make it a quality Pokemon, though its use lies on defensive-oriented teams.

I will do more mini-analyses tomorrow, it'd be nice to get that list filled by June.

Now, as for the rankings themselves, I like them for the most part but want to suggest a couple of small changes.


Arceus-Normal--------------------------> Drop from A+ to A-

Extremekiller Arceus is every newer Gen 5 player's dream Pokemon. It possesses the ability to easily clean up the lower ladder and has the strongest priority in the game barring Bisharp's deadly Sucker Punch. What's more, Extremekiller has the bulk to set up easily at least once throughout the match, and a +2 ExtremeSpeed will OHKO most Pokemon that do not resist it. It also offers valuable utility to offense in its ability to revenge threats like Nasty Plot Darkrai and Scarf Shaymin-S after some prior damage without even needing to set up, making those threats far easier to control. Though its coverage moves are not godly, it still gets moves to hits its checks, such as Shadow Claw, Overheat, and Earthquake. There is no question that Extremekiller is a viable choice for most ubers teams.

Unfortunately, Extremekiller suffers many drawbacks that make it a subpar choice for most Ubers teams. First of all, it is completely useless against Stall teams due to the general lack of power of its coverage moves. It has no way of getting around the likes of Giratina-A and Skarmory in the rain, no matter how hard it tries, even after hazard damage. Secondly, Extremekiller is vulnerable to burns unless it carries Lum Berry; an item that makes Extremekiller checked much more easily by the likes of Fighting Arceus and Terrakion due to the lack of power compared to the superior Silk Scarf. If the opponent chooses to check Extremekiller offensively rather than by burning it, Lum Berry will be rendered completely useless, making it an unreliable option overall. Like most physical attackers in Ubers, a burn will make Extremekiller unable to do much of anything, but unlike other physical attackers in the tier, Extremekiller is not very threatening before it sets up. Finally, unlike all other Arceus formes barring shitty ones like Bug, Extremekiller does not grant its team a quality typing. In other words, it cannot switch into anything if it wants to adequately perform its cleaning duties. This means Extremekiller players will be playing 6-5 for most of the game (unless you are looking to revenge kill a weakened frail sweeper, and even then it can only come in after one of your Pokemon has fainted.) Though Extremekiller is probably the best cleaner in the game, it isn't so dominant in that role that its weaknesses make it worth freely slapping onto any team. In fact, it should only be used on HO teams that value its STAB Extremespeed. In summary: just because the Draco Masters idolize a Pokemon doesn't mean it's that good...



Latios------------------------------> Rise from A to A+

...but sometimes they are right on the money! Latios is a devastating, metagame defining force that every quality team MUST have an answer for. Latios possesses the power and movepool to decimate Stall, Balance, and Offensive teams alike. With Soul Dew, Latios reaches an astounding 538 special attack, allowing it to do ~65-70% or so to bulky Arceus forms with Draco Meteor. Its excellent 110 base speed stat allows it to outrun and OHKO speedy threats like Palkia, Garchomp, and Life Orb Terrakion. Though its movepool unfortunately lacks a strong Fire move, it gets excellent coverage moves in Thunder (allowing it to beat Skarmory and Lugia), Psyshock (which rips blobs and makes it an effective Calm Mind user), Grass Knot, Surf, and others. HP Fire can still deal ~45% to Ferrothorn in the rain so it isn't useless, but Latios can opt to run Roar with hazard support to deal with "checks" such as Heatran and Jirachi, as it usually only takes one well-timed Roar to put them in range of a 2HKO. Latios also gets Magic Coat to anti-lead Deoxys-S and send status right back at the opponent, meaning Thunder Wave Lugia is not a reliable way to deal with Latios even in sunlight.

The biggest downside to Latios is its inability to effectively check stuff. Sure, it can in on some variants of Kyogre, and its terrific ability in Levitate allow it to switch into predicted Ground moves (you also avoid Spikes/TSpikes unlike some other special Dragons), but unlike Latias it is not a surefire check to Kyogre. Unlike Extremekiller, it doesn't really need to worry about preserving its health too much, since it doesn't need a SD boost to start putting pressure on the opponent. For this reason I don't feel its inability to switch in on most threats is as damning for it as EKiller. So yeah...Latias is "better" as a pure Kyogre check but Latios puts more pressure on the opponent than Latias does and is more effective at breaking potential threats. I'd like for them to share A+ rank even though they have obvious differences. Melee Mewtwo and I agree that Palkia could probably be elevated along with Latios, but I'll let someone else argue for it.

Glad Omastar got promoted, Specs is terrific and makes a great partner for CM Arceus-Fighting. I feel Wobb could move up to B- but don't feel strongly about that I guess.

 

[Hack]

Latios definitely deserves A+ in my eyes. It is simply put one of the best wallbreakers thanks to its hazard resilience and power.

I disagree with Ekiller and you glorify Omastar. You are completely disregarding the fact that despite having checks, nothing is a true hard counter to the possible combinations of moves/items it can have and an offense can be build to capitalize just on the defensive roadblocks that gets in its way.

Normal is actually a decent offensive typing thanks to STAB Extremespeed incase you had forgotten (you didn't since you put up some relevant examples of its revenge killing capability), especially for an offensive team. Against stall, you make it sound like it's complete dead weight, which is plain wrong as it forces certain predicable plays, will get to set up meaning it can cripple a wall and allow some other sweeper to overpower the opposition. Or you know, you do the opposite and have a wallbreaker included in your build to break up for Ekiller. "Doubling up" is after all the basis every offense deploys somewhat. The second thing you have to realize is that stall isn't as varied in gen5 as it can be in gen6. Most builds are easily threatened by Palkia/Ho-oh/Mewtwo/Latios enough as it is, meaning it's a tricky archetype to execute overall, and not as prevalent. I have had enough arguments about this mon in particular, so I don't wanna drag on repeating my old arguments (which are still valid) but let's just leave at disagreeing. A+ is definitely the lowest it can go in my eyes, although I think it is better in gen6 (where it must be S).

Omastar is an interesting mon, and Specs is a strong set. But it still faces similar problems to what rain offense usually has- namely breaking FerroCruel based rain stalls, which why Kabutops is much easier to execute. Kabutops also has Rapid Spin, and can pull it off somewhat nicely in certain scenarios (albeit sacrificing itself in the process usually). Having a spinner on rain offense is always nice as rain teams are arguably easier to stack hazards against. Being faster than Omastar is a big bonus too- Bug Buzz Genesect, which is very prevalent, can revenge kill Omastar while Kabutops sweeps through. All in all, Kabutops is always a tad higher than Omastar in my book, although both are viable mons.

 

[shrang]

Personally, I don't mind Ekiller being in A+. Personally I'd have it a bit lower, but A+ is fine. It is a well-established threat that every team needs to have a solid answer to.

Latios, on the other hand, I believe is fine where he is (in A) and doesn't need to be bumped up. Don't get me wrong with this, I am not going to deny that Latios is an excellent Pokemon, but he doesn't belong in A+ for one reason - he has huge competition from Latias. Sure, there are definitely things Latios does better than Latias and vice versa, but I don't think we can deny that Latias, is in general, more versatile and fits onto more teams than Latios does. While she is weaker than Latios, she can run similar sets than Latios can to a similar effect, but with the added perk of switching into Kyogre, Palkia and a bunch of Pokemon way more effectively than Latios can. When you have Latios, you would need a more sturdy check to Kyogre and water spammers (eg Palkia), which means you're using an extra teamslot than when you can just use Latias and save that team slot. In short, using Latios means operating at a higher opportunity cost than using Latias. Since Latias is in A+, it would be logical that Latios should be lower than Latias, so I think mid A is a fine place. There were actually many times where I wanted to use Latios in gen 5, but found Latias much easier to put into most of my teams that Latios kind of missed out, and it's kind of questionable to run both on the same team.

 

[Haruno]

Remind me again why gene was A+? I remember mm2 saying how it's "predictable" as a scarf user but when you do a job as well as genesect, and when your most spammed move is fucking uturn, who gives a fuck if gene is predictable.

Gene for S rank. One of if not the best scarfers in game at a solid 99 speed tier and it allows it to threaten many mons in the tier and earn easy momentum against the likes of the latis, mewtwo, kyu-w, etc.

 

[Hack]

i honestly agree with haruno

 

[Edgar]

I think Omastar in A rank is a little bit too much to be honest. I think if Omastar is even to be considered A- rank, then Kabutops should be at least be considered A/A+ as it has more utility than Omastar does as a Swift Swim sweeper in my opinion, might write something up later.

 

[Kebabe]

Yeah, agreeing with genesect for S, Always pulls its weight, works on almost any team. Amazing typing and moves for a offensive pivot. And stop saying it's one of the best scarfers, it's in its own league.

(the shift gear set isn't to bad either)

 

[Li Xiao Long]

Can someone explain to me why Skarmory is higher than Excadrill (best offensive spinner in weather, cloyster is best outside of weather), Ttar (Weather Setter, Tank, Sr setter, can use taunt, etc. so many options), and Arceus-Grass (It's an Arceus that just so happens to be able to check Kyogre when non statused and all that shit)?_?
I disagree with Kyurem W being in the same tier as Gen V Blaziken, and Espeon being in C. For those of you that don't know why (lol), Kyurem W is a great special attacker with that useful Dragon/Ice coverage, and many coverage moves (Fusion Flare, Earth Power, Focus Blast, even Sleep Talk, etc.) And Lugia is also a great wall, which should be at least Low b - B rank imo. Reshiram is a viable attacker, able to run mixed scarf, Flame Charge LO (Steelskitty Inventor o.0), choice specs (demonstrated by Alex Walls in BW1). You should not underestimate the amount of damage this thing can put in your team. Especially in sun. Also, why the hell is Latias above Latios? Latios is a complete nuke that gives a big fuck you to steel types. The CM set is simply so powerful, OHKOing so many big threats after a boost (or more, but if it gets to more than +1, you're fucked without Arceus-Ghost or scarfed physcial dragon). Other options include Support, although Latias is probably better for that role.

My tryhard version of doing Dialga:

Dialga is a reliant Stealth Rock setter with a myriad of resistances (Grass, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Steel, Water, Flying, Normal, Bug, immunity to poison, Rock, and Dark). It's great at setting up SR because it does well vs most spinners barring Excadrill, with good coverage moves (Fire Blast, Thunder, Aura Sphere, etc. etc.). It can also phaze with Dragon Tail/Roar, prolonging a sweep/potential threat to its teammates.
As an offensive threat, Dialga has a great SAtk, and equipped with a Life Orb, deals massive amounts of damage, OHKOing Groudon, certain Kyogres after hazards, and certain variants of other Dialgas/Dragons. LO Dialga with SR (lol @Blimalga) is extremely viable. On the other hand, TR LO Dialga is a huge overlooked threat to HO, especially those that have Swift Swimmers/Scarfers that are quite frail. Another reason why Dialga is so good in TR is because the most common and viable priorities are NVE vs it. Like TRalga, Scarfalga is good for the same factors, only you aren't guaranteed to outspeed Swift Swimmers/Win speed ties vs other Scarfers. Other options include Choice Specs (threatening to some teams, but in the same way Specskia is better in my opinion because of the higher speed stat and abuse of weather), Bulk Up (lol), and Choice Band, which makes absolutely no sense in my opinion.

Am I doing this correctly? o.0

 

[Monte Cristo]

Can someone explain to me why Skarmory is higher than Excadrill (best offensive spinner in weather, cloyster is best outside of weather), Ttar (Weather Setter, Tank, Sr setter, can use taunt, etc. so many options), and Arceus-Grass (It's an Arceus that just so happens to be able to check Kyogre when non statused and all that shit)?_?
I disagree with Kyurem W being in the same tier as Gen V Blaziken, and Espeon being in C. For those of you that don't know why (lol), Kyurem W is a great special attacker with that useful Dragon/Ice coverage, and many coverage moves (Fusion Flare, Earth Power, Focus Blast, even Sleep Talk, etc.) And Lugia is also a great wall, which should be at least Low b - B rank imo. Reshiram is a viable attacker, able to run mixed scarf, Flame Charge LO (Steelskitty Inventor o.0), choice specs (demonstrated by Alex Walls in BW1). You should not underestimate the amount of damage this thing can put in your team. Especially in sun. Also, why the hell is Latias above Latios? Latios is a complete nuke that gives a big fuck you to steel types. The CM set is simply so powerful, OHKOing so many big threats after a boost (or more, but if it gets to more than +1, you're fucked without Arceus-Ghost or scarfed physcial dragon). Other options include Support, although Latias is probably better for that role.

My tryhard version of doing Dialga:

Dialga is a reliant Stealth Rock setter with a myriad of resistances (Grass, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Steel, Water, Flying, Normal, Bug, immunity to poison, Rock, and Dark). It's great at setting up SR because it does well vs most spinners barring Excadrill, with good coverage moves (Fire Blast, Thunder, Aura Sphere, etc. etc.). It can also phaze with Dragon Tail/Roar, prolonging a sweep/potential threat to its teammates.
As an offensive threat, Dialga has a great SAtk, and equipped with a Life Orb, deals massive amounts of damage, OHKOing Groudon, certain Kyogres after hazards, and certain variants of other Dialgas/Dragons. LO Dialga with SR (lol @Blimalga) is extremely viable. On the other hand, TR LO Dialga is a huge overlooked threat to HO, especially those that have Swift Swimmers/Scarfers that are quite frail. Another reason why Dialga is so good in TR is because the most common and viable priorities are NVE vs it. Like TRalga, Scarfalga is good for the same factors, only you aren't guaranteed to outspeed Swift Swimmers/Win speed ties vs other Scarfers. Other options include Choice Specs (threatening to some teams, but in the same way Specskia is better in my opinion because of the higher speed stat and abuse of weather), Bulk Up (lol), and Choice Band, which makes absolutely no sense in my opinion.

Am I doing this correctly? o.0

lol Latios over Latias is a funny joke. Latios is a great nuke for offensive and balance teams but it's in no way as good as Latias, which the extra bulk comes to show after a soul dew boost. Latias is on another tier when it comes to usefulness on a team, it checks lots of stuff and I'd be surprised if you could build a viable team without it or palkia to check ogre. to put it in perspective, this is kind of like the AV palk of gen 5 when it comes to ogre checking utility. IDK if I said it properly but that's why latias is A+, or you could just read the write up

 

[Li Xiao Long]

lol Latios over Latias is a funny joke. Latios is a great nuke for offensive and balance teams but it's in no way as good as Latias, which the extra bulk comes to show after a soul dew boost. Latias is on another tier when it comes to usefulness on a team, it checks lots of stuff and I'd be surprised if you could build a viable team without it or palkia to check ogre. to put it in perspective, this is kind of like the AV palk of gen 5 when it comes to ogre checking utility. IDK if I said it properly but that's why latias is A+, or you could just read the write up

Seriously are you kidding me...
First of all, Latios is not a check to really anything, but you have to be able to beat latios (which really isn't that easy without taking huge damage) Re: Needing to check ogre, hey have you heard of The Blazing Glaciers? Idk it's an ok team by your standards I guess since you're such a legendary god. Also, skyless world. There are a lot of teams like that. Also alex wall's sun team in bw1. READ UP ON YOUR INFO PLEASE
Also, av palkia is terrible, use lefties if you want to check ogre...

 

[Bossness]

lol Latios over Latias is a funny joke. Latios is a great nuke for offensive and balance teams but it's in no way as good as Latias, which the extra bulk comes to show after a soul dew boost. Latias is on another tier when it comes to usefulness on a team, it checks lots of stuff and I'd be surprised if you could build a viable team without it or palkia to check ogre. to put it in perspective, this is kind of like the AV palk of gen 5 when it comes to ogre checking utility. IDK if I said it properly but that's why latias is A+, or you could just read the write up

I have several viable teams that don't have Latias or Palkia. Surprised? In one such team, all its Pokémon get 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by Choice Scarf Water Spout, but the team handles Kyogre just fine.

A check is anything that can beat the Pokémon in question given a free switch-in. As Latios can OHKO several Pokémon (all dragons, Kyogre, Ferrothorn, Groudon, the genies, Forretress, Mewtwo and so on), it is a check to those Pokémon.

 

[Li Xiao Long]

I have several viable teams that don't have Latias or Palkia. Surprised? In one such team, all its Pokémon get 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by Choice Scarf Water Spout, but the team handles Kyogre just fine.

A check is anything that can beat the Pokémon in question given a free switch-in. As Latios can OHKO several Pokémon (all dragons, Kyogre, Ferrothorn, Groudon, the genies, Forretress, Mewtwo and so on), it is a check to those Pokémon.

Sorry I fail at vocab
Yeah, there are viable teams without those 2 pokemon, like I mentioned. (Gg)

 

[Sweep]

How do you guys feel about Breloom and Umbreon? I know neither of them have analyses so I will not attempt to do a write up for either of them, but feel both warrant discussion.

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Stone Edge

Sash Breloom is an interesting case. The first thing to note about it is that it's EXTREMELY match-up reliant, and has no way to deal with RestTalk Giratina formes and is worthless against teams with them until they are knocked out. However, against other teams it can essentially KO a Pokemon with Spore while killing or badly wounding whatever comes into deal with it. It also anti-leads Deo-A and to a lesser extent Deo-S with Bullet Seed.

Hide

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 201-237 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and Mach Punch finishes it off. 4 hits or a fortunate crit will ensure Deoxys-S's demise. Bulkier sets (think Rocky Helmet) will live but will probably Taunt you to prevent Spore, so chances are they will not get off more than one hazard anyway. You need to be very unlucky not to hold it to one hazard.

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-A: 633-747 (262.6 - 309.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Note that these calcs assume a Jolly Breloom, which I prefer to ambush Ho-Oh with somewhat significant speed creep. Adamant naturally hits even harder and outright kills DeoS in three hits ~50% of the time...if they Taunt you to prevent Spore, you begin the game up 6-5 with no hazards on your side of the field!

Also note that many RestTalk Pokemon, such as Kyogre and Dialga, cannot deal with Breloom at all! Only Giratina really hard counters it, and Giratina-A wasn't exactly everywhere in BW 2. Kirigakure and Cilt (old ladder guy), both of whom I have respect for as quality gen 5 players, used this set a lot but I rarely saw it on the ladder (and never in competitive play). It deals with all weather setters, is an effective anti-lead vs. a variety of shit and has a 100% accurate sleep move. WHat more could you want, other than perhaps the ability to actually synergize on teams and not be incredibly reliant on Focus Sash? OK, so Breloom isn't perfect but it's a quality lead deserving of C rank IMO. BTW Steelskitty, I swear I was gonna post about this before seeing your sexy as fuck Gen 6 Breloom team!!!!!

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic / Heal Bell / Taunt

Umbreon is a cool Pokemon that provides Stall teams a quality answer to the Lati twins and some CM Arceus formes (252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Foul Play is excellent on Umbreon since it is boosted by STAB and allows the opponent's Pokemon to supply offense for it. It is capable of 3HKOing the likes of Kyogre, Reshiram, Zekrom (2hko after rocks) and Palkia, easily wearing them down. Wish allows Umbreon to replenish both its own health and that of its teammates, and a good 95 HP stat helps its cause. Though Umbreon has access to Moonlight, this is generally inferior to Wish / Protect because of Moonlight's low PP and the omnipresence of Rain. Since Umbreon can use both Toxic and Foul Play, it isn't set-up bait for many Pokemon (barring stuff like Croogre) so don't worry much about Wish/Protect being vulnerable to set-up sweepers. Umbreon has several quality options to round out its movepool. Toxic works well in conjunction with Protect and provides a way to cripple stuff such as Calm Mind Arceus formes. Heal Bell is obviously a great move, but Umbreon isn't so bulky that it can pass Wishes and heal its teammates of status throughout the game so keep in mind it'll be one or the other most of the time. Taunt is also good to prevent the likes of Ferrothorn and Forretress from setting up hazards on you. Which move you choose will typically depend on team need.

I'd put this in C rank as well since it has a limited pool of Pokemon that it can actually check effectively (though Palkia in sunlight in one such Pokemon!) Melee Mewtwo already posted about this babe months ago, it's a shame it doesn't have an analysis yet.

 

[Aquasition]

How do you guys feel about Breloom and Umbreon? I know neither of them have analyses so I will not attempt to do a write up for either of them, but feel both warrant discussion.

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Stone Edge

Sash Breloom is an interesting case. The first thing to note about it is that it's EXTREMELY match-up reliant, and has no way to deal with RestTalk Giratina formes and is worthless against teams with them until they are knocked out. However, against other teams it can essentially KO a Pokemon with Spore while killing or badly wounding whatever comes into deal with it. It also anti-leads Deo-A and to a lesser extent Deo-S with Bullet Seed.

Hide

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 201-237 (83 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and Mach Punch finishes it off. 4 hits or a fortunate crit will ensure Deoxys-S's demise. Bulkier sets (think Rocky Helmet) will live but will probably Taunt you to prevent Spore, so chances are they will not get off more than one hazard anyway. You need to be very unlucky not to hold it to one hazard.

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-A: 633-747 (262.6 - 309.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Note that these calcs assume a Jolly Breloom, which I prefer to ambush Ho-Oh with somewhat significant speed creep. Adamant naturally hits even harder and outright kills DeoS in three hits ~50% of the time...if they Taunt you to prevent Spore, you begin the game up 6-5 with no hazards on your side of the field!

Also note that many RestTalk Pokemon, such as Kyogre and Dialga, cannot deal with Breloom at all! Only Giratina really hard counters it, and Giratina-A wasn't exactly everywhere in BW 2. Kirigakure and Cilt (old ladder guy), both of whom I have respect for as quality gen 5 players, used this set a lot but I rarely saw it on the ladder (and never in competitive play). It deals with all weather setters, is an effective anti-lead vs. a variety of shit and has a 100% accurate sleep move. WHat more could you want, other than perhaps the ability to actually synergize on teams and not be incredibly reliant on Focus Sash? OK, so Breloom isn't perfect but it's a quality lead deserving of C rank IMO. BTW Steelskitty, I swear I was gonna post about this before seeing your sexy as fuck Gen 6 Breloom team!!!!!

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic / Heal Bell / Taunt

Umbreon is a cool Pokemon that provides Stall teams a quality answer to the Lati twins and some CM Arceus formes (252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Foul Play is excellent on Umbreon since it is boosted by STAB and allows the opponent's Pokemon to supply offense for it. It is capable of 3HKOing the likes of Kyogre, Reshiram, Zekrom (2hko after rocks) and Palkia, easily wearing them down. Wish allows Umbreon to replenish both its own health and that of its teammates, and a good 95 HP stat helps its cause. Though Umbreon has access to Moonlight, this is generally inferior to Wish / Protect because of Moonlight's low PP and the omnipresence of Rain. Since Umbreon can use both Toxic and Foul Play, it isn't set-up bait for many Pokemon (barring stuff like Croogre) so don't worry much about Wish/Protect being vulnerable to set-up sweepers. Umbreon has several quality options to round out its movepool. Toxic works well in conjunction with Protect and provides a way to cripple stuff such as Calm Mind Arceus formes. Heal Bell is obviously a great move, but Umbreon isn't so bulky that it can pass Wishes and heal its teammates of status throughout the game so keep in mind it'll be one or the other most of the time. Taunt is also good to prevent the likes of Ferrothorn and Forretress from setting up hazards on you. Which move you choose will typically depend on team need.

I'd put this in C rank as well since it has a limited pool of Pokemon that it can actually check effectively (though Palkia in sunlight in one such Pokemon!) Melee Mewtwo already posted about this babe months ago, it's a shame it doesn't have an analysis yet.

-1 million points for referring to breelom as "breloom".

Otherwise, I agree with most of what's said here, and makes me wonder about umbreon in gen 6. Sure, it's fairy-weak, but it's also not M-gar vulnerable. Hmm...

 

[Shitegotreal]

Nominating Arceus-Steel for A-Mid rank. I'll list a couple of reasons to support my opinion.

1. SR resist. Most used move in every metagame. And one of the things which is ALSO kept in mind when rating a mon's viability like in this thread.
2. Checks Latios, in Rain. This COULD be handy if you decide to use Arc-Steel on Rain Stall. Most Stall teams are threatened by these this mon. (+ Rai ,Kia M2) of course, but you'll have something else (I hope) for checking those 2 anyway.)
3. Possibly one of the best lures for ho-oh, when he is equipped with Stone Edge.
4. Toxic Immunity, Toxic Spikes immunity.

Comparing it with something else which is also in mid-a like Skarm: Skarm gets spikes. ( + for Skarm)
Steelceus has overall better defenses ( + for Steelceus)
Steelceus has the SR resist, skarm doesn't. That makes the crucial difference in some scenarios. (+ for Steelceus).
Unlike Skarm, Steelceus can lure out ho-oh with stone edge. Skarm can't do this. ( + for Steelceus).

So as u can see based from my points, it may seem like i want steelceus for moving up to A+ instead of A-Mid. But I actually compared it with Skarm, cuz I think it is superior to Skarm. Therefore I also think Skarm should be relegated to A- Rank.
Steelceus for A-Mid like I mentioned.

 

[Inspirited]

I did a thing :]
[*]

(Dialga)

Hide

Dialga is probably one of the biggest nuisances in the BW Ubers environment. Its stat distribution is almost perfect in that it can take any one hit neutral hit from the almost the entire tier without the help of an ability like Sturdy. It can also threaten out just about every Pokemon in the tier with the correct move. What makes Dialga even more terrifying is its move pool. Given its annoying combination of excellent typing and bulk, Dialga stands out as the most reliable Stealth Rock setter in the tier (possibly even the game!) and this gets compounded by its ability to threaten every Rapid Spin user bar Tentacruel with a specific coverage move.
It is definitely not constricted to this role though, Dialga's stat distribution and move pool make it extremely versatile in that it can run Choiced sets, Mixed Attacking sets, Trick Room, and Bulk Up. It is also one of the few Pokemon that can run both offensive, and defensive Stealth Rock sets, so figuring out what Dialga is trying to do is sometimes a challenge in itself. It also functions extremely well with Kyogre since it can reliably get up rocks, check Ferrothorn, destroy Palkia, and can threaten Latias / phaze Calm Mind variants. It also works well with Rayquaza because of the way it takes on Palkia and the reliable Stealth Rock support it provides. Unlike Rayquaza, Dialga does not care about Genesect's existance at all.

Thank you Minus for GP checking this.

 

[Aquasition]

Reshiram for B-

Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability: Reshiram hits really hard with its STAB Blue Flare, doubly so when sun-boosted. It also has the advantage of Unresisted STAB, allowing it to run either Stone Edge for Ho-oh, or Outrage for Pink Blobs and CM Latis. It can also access flame charge, which allows it to be used as a sweeper, with one problem for reshi, speed, being fixed. With LO, Reshiram can 2HKO most of the tier with SR support.

They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility: While most people would think of using reshi offensive in terms of a Sun-based Scarf/Specs Palkia, if you know what I mean, I find Reshiram's particular niche is Mixed Flame Charge. While Ho-oh seems superior to Reshiram in this aspect at first, remember that ho-oh is pure physical flame charge. In particular, Mixed FC Resh is pretty hard to stop after a single FC, and can basically go through an entire team provided its HP lasts, while Ho-oh is annoyed by the likes of Great Walls and only Stealth rock, whilst it takes SR+ 3 Spikes to make Reshi lose 1/2 HP. Basically, it's role could be a mid-game sweeper. Despite this, using it as a Scarf/ Wallbreaker is not unheard of, and it hits like a truck if you do use it this way.

They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost: Reshiram, or, at least Mixed Flame Charge Reshiram, likes having 3 things: Entry hazard support, removal of entry hazards, and Sun. Stealth Rocks and spikes are obvious. In fact, SR is needed to 2HKO Chansey, and OHKO Ho-oh using Outrage. While removing entry hazards isn't as bad for Reshiram as it is for ho-oh, removal of entry hazards is still important, due to the fact that Reshiram can be affected by spikes. Now, It's not outclassed by Ho-oh because they have different checks. for Example, Great Wall Giratina can annoy Ho-oh, whilst Reshiram laughs. In a similar vein, Reshiram has to time outrage perfectly to bring down the blobs, while Ho-oh just BARNs them. Sun is self-explanatory. While it's certainly not as good as Ho-oh, Reshiram still has a few upsides that it can bring to the table, like unresisted STABs, the ability to 2HKO the tier, and the fact that it's a special attacking fire-type.


(I have the weirdest feeling that a lot of ppl are gonna disagree with me .-.)

 

[Aquasition]

What do you mean Ho-Oh is annoyed by the likes of '' Great Walls '' LOL. > Implying great walls can wall ho-oh

oh no, they don't wall it completely, they just make you switch, because you locked yourself in the wrong move, or they phase you out should you be subroost, or they switch to a flying resist if they have one. In other words, they're still annoying

 

[Aquasition]

O__K. You do realize they can only force ho-oh out if SR is not up on their side, right?

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 205-243 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

so, switch into BB, have a high chance to survive the 2nd hit, allowing gira to rest back up, and eventually, you'll have to switch due to BB's recoil combined with Gira's high HP. And that's the best case scenario.

 

[Edgar]

Yeah, it's kind of annoying when people don't know about anything besides Banded Ho-Oh Hyper Offense and post in a 5th gen thread. But yeah, stop being annoying in a viability rankings thread, things can be discussed for them to be changed but no need to be a dick for no reason

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Someone explain why Arceus normal isn't S. It can run the physically defensive set which has the advantage of leftovers on other arceuses and walls everything in game. And E killer is simply metagame defining much like xerneas in gen 6. It can also run lo shadow force to get past its typical counters. It's just too good and the only reason its true power doesn't shine is that every team is over prepared for it imo.

 

[Aquasition]

Someone explain why Arceus normal isn't S. It can run the physically defensive set which has the advantage of leftovers on other arceuses and walls everything in game. And E killer is simply metagame defining much like xerneas in gen 6. It can also run lo shadow force to get past its typical counters. It's just too good and the only reason its true power doesn't shine is that every team is over prepared for it imo.

The funny thing is that it used to be S rank. I think it's because it has trouble getting around the likes of Skarmory, Gira-A, and Lugia, not to mention the checks like SupportDon and Scarf Dialga I think. Also, the wallceus set takes hits very well, but has trouble dishing them back, and hates being statused.

 

[Hack]

Ekiller is imo much better in gen 6 where its revenge killing capability is incredibly important for offensive teams, especially against Xerneas who you can push into Espeed range with all your mons. In gen 5 there are a lot of viable checks to Arceus-Normal than doesn't have as much merit in gen6: Giratina formes, especially Giratina-O, are among the top tier mons and Arceus-Fighting is simply amazing in the BW ubers meta. Add to that things like Skarmory, Kabu/Oma, Terrakion, Explosion Genesect, Ferrothorn and Arceus-Ghost who are all more prevalent and mostly better in gen5 and you suddenly have a quite meaty list of checks that are viable for any sort of team, even HO has absolutely no problems getting even 2 checks without being impaled. However, I agree that Arceus-Normal is an extremely big threat anyway and most checks can be weakened very easily to a point where you can sweep, so I am on the fence whether S or A+ is more fitting. In general though, I have no problems with its current ranking as there are many types of teams you wanna have a more synergistic Arceus on.