Sorry i'm new but why isn't machop on the list?
Koffing also has (barely) reliable recovery in painsplit which immediately puts it LEAGUES AHEAD of Bronzor in this roll.
Ah, machop must not have been added yet.
I think machop should be B tier, or maybe even C tier. It's kind of outclassed by Timburr now, and the only thing that really distinguishes the two are stats and the fact that Machop has Dynamic Punch. It hits very hard with Dynamic Punch, but can be easily worn down with status or SE attacks / STAB. It is also beaten by WoW Missy and Offensive Murkrow- the former of which Timburr is not as afraid of. I think that makes it B tier.
To be honest I see Machop as more of a C or even D. I really don't see the point in running it. If you want to run the scarf set, then Mienfoo's access to U-turn outclasses it in this department. If you want to run the Bulk Up set, I find Timburr's ability to take Will-O-wisps is much more useful than NoGuard Dynamic Punch and Timburr gets Drain Punch (Machop doesn't get Drain Punch wtf?). If you do want to run Guts on Machop then it's only niche in No Guard Dynamic Punch is lost, so again you may as well run Timburr who has Drain Punch.
Machop has CC and bsically the same stats as timburr. However, it seems like a C ranker.To be honest I see Machop as more of a C or even D. I really don't see the point in running it. If you want to run the scarf set, then Mienfoo's access to U-turn outclasses it in this department. If you want to run the Bulk Up set, I find Timburr's ability to take Will-O-wisps is much more useful than NoGuard Dynamic Punch and Timburr gets Drain Punch (Machop doesn't get Drain Punch wtf?). If you do want to run Guts on Machop then it's only niche in No Guard Dynamic Punch is lost, so again you may as well run Timburr who has Drain Punch.
Skittle said:I haven't seen anything about Shroomish so far, so I'd like to bring it up for discussion (As a A/B Pokémon). It's often regarded as a worse version of Foongus, but it really is a great Pokémon. Foongus is better in a way because it has a great ability in Regenerator, and a Fighting resist, but the reason I love Shroomish so much is because of the ground resist. Shroomish can stop Drilbur like nobody's business. Drilburs X-Scissor does 40%, and Shroomish can Giga Drain back. Shroomish also gets access to Spore, Stun Spore, Giga Drain, Synthesis, Toxic, Leech Seed, Substitute, and Protect, giving it quite a nice move pool. It can be good on teams, as it stop Drilbur in it's tracks when it's on apposing teams, and they don't have Drilbur, it can status everything.
If Shroomish packs Fake Tears it will beat a ton of common walls that switch into it (Lileep, Porygon, Bronzor, etc. ) 1 on 1, something Cottonee can't do, Cottonee will never win against something like Porygon. In the least Fake tears gets them to switch or take heavy damage, which is more than Cottonee does to it's checks.
Yes, Encore discourages Setup, but Cottonee relies on getting in safely (ie you need to predict whether or not Axew or Scraggy will use Dragon Dance when you switch it in for it to work) and in the process you might just be eating a Hi Jump Kick or an Outrage - health that Cottonee won't be able to get back.
Cottonee is so easy to play around because it's so predicable. A U-turn user and a grass type is really all you need (or even two U-tuners) and Cottonee is doing literally nothing but kill itself. When I see Cottonee I do the same exact thing everytime - immediately switch to Larvesta(or thing that has U-turn) while it Subs/Encores/Leech Seeds and then U-turn to Chikorita. Larvesta might get paralyzed, but Chikorita comes in, prevents it from recovering, uses Aromatherapy, and I go back to larvesta, and repeat the process. Cottonee literally kills itself because it can't regain the health it uses for a sub.
It's so easy to wall it's ridiculous. Stun Spore doesn't stop the walls that can deal with it all day long. No one is going to switch their Drifloon into Cottonee just to have it stun spored. Similarly, if I have an Axew or something and I dragon dance when Cottonee comes in, I am not staying in. Even if you predict this and use Sub/ Leech Seed, you still don't get anywhere if there is a grass type or a wall comes in, you might even lose health if you decide to Sub.
So then you can say that Cottonee discourages setup, which it does to an extent, but if set up sweepers aren't setting up, they're attacking and most of those attacks Cottonee can't switch into.
Just getting a stun spore off is, yeah great and all, but not jusifiable for a slot on a team. The cool thing about Cottonee, though, is that it basically says no to absolutely everything that can set up ever thanks to prankster. Scraggy comes in on your bronzor? No prob, just switch the Dance and encore it, uturn to a counter. And that scenario repeats itself for literally every sweeper until you replace bronzor with something that isnt terrible (jokes! gosh im funny). Didja get hit on the switch? ouch that sucks cause you'll probably be 2hko'd. using scraggy as an example again, you can just encore the drain punch and switch to a ghost, ortoxic/stunspore, or leech seed (probably safer due to shed skin) to limit its sweep. Like Hawkstar said, its less punishing for being out predicted or pressured into a move than the other grass typesCottonee can just pop off a sacrificial Stun Spore and cripple something before going down, which is still doing its job.
Scraggy comes in on your bronzor? No prob, just switch the Dance and encore it, uturn to a counter. And that scenario repeats itself for literally every sweeper
Someone brought up the point of "superior bulk" that shroomish has, and yeah it does have a litttle better bulk (mostly in the form of more HP and access to "reliable" recover. however, neither are 2hko'd by Scraggy's unboosted drain punch. I'm honestly too lazy too look up other things, but thats a fairly powerful neutral hit from one of the more common setup sweepers. Basically, where cottonee shines brightest, the only thing shroomish as on it, is negligible.
Its also worth mentioning everything Shroomish can do Foongus can do better
Cottonee doesn't run Fake Tears because you said it yourself that giga drain is useless, and gives up spots, it can't even have an attacking move, which makes it lose to taunt. You could say "Well, taunt them before they taint me" but stuff like Stunky isn't the most obvious user of taunt, and Vullaby beats you whether you taunt it or not and doesn't care about paralysis.
Shroomish on the other hand, can make use of Fake Tears.
36 SpA Shroomish Giga Drain vs. -2 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.92 - 38.46%) -- 60.79% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Lileep AncientPower vs. 196 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Shroomish: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- possible 6HKO
Lileep is losing, no matter what way you spin it. Keep in mind that Ancient Power only has 8 PP and Shroomish heals from toxic and recovers off the damage easily. What does Cottonee do against Lileep? You can taunt it, but then you just get hit by Ancient Power which can do upwards of 28% which is health you are not getting back. If Lileep comes in everytime Cottonee does, Cottonee WILL lose to Lileep rather quickly.
36 SpA Shroomish Giga Drain vs. -2 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 196 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Shroomish: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- possible 4HKO
Again, Shroomish will pretty much always win. Cottonee will always lose against porygon.
36 SpA Shroomish Giga Drain vs. -2 220 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 3-5 (12 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Bronzor Flash Cannon vs. 196 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Shroomish: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- possible 6HKO
Probably really boring to go through, but Shroomish will still end up winning in the long run against Bronzor. Cottonee taunts it, which helps but even bronzor's attacks will chip away at it.
Encoring setup is pretty risky since you must switch in at the right time. If you succeed once, you probably aren't going to do it again because something like Scraggy will just Drain Punch or Hi Jump Kick when it comes in on a lileep or bronzor. You risk getting hit pretty hard to the point where it is very difficult to get that back. In reality, There are only a few common set up sweepers in LC: Scraggy, Axew, Tirtouga, Pawinard, Timburr, Missy, Shellder, and Tirtouga (maybe I'm missing one or two, but that's not really a lot.) Encoring will only get you so far in LC. What you can't encore you're saying "Well I'll just Stun Spore it!" doesn't really work against most bulkier teams around.
Have you ever used Cottonee? Because it doesn't even learn U-turn...
Not being 2HKO'd with recovery is one thing, but not being 2HKO'd with no recovery is completely different. Cottonee must be at full heath or near full health to check setup because it risks taking hits and it's health it's not going to get back.
Why do people say this? This is so wrong, Foongus has just plain inferior defensive stats than Foongus. It is NOT taking Earthquakes any time soon, even with regenerator. Foongus is kind of like Koffing in that yes it has a fighting type resistance...but what does it do back? Giga Drain really doesn't scare any fighting type away and sends them running to the hills. Stuff like Slowpoke, Vullaby, and Missy are just more powerful or can hit them super effectively. Mienfoo Knocks off it's eviolite and just U-turns out when you come in on Drain Punch or Fake Out. Giga Draining it isn't doing anything to it. The only fighting type that I can see being scared of Foongus is Timburr. Almost any other Fighting type like Croagunk doesn't really care about it.
B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.