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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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Torn T can live a T bolt and KO back with Focus Blast and Weavile can just switch out to some other mon that ton can't touch. Magneton is rly bad right now and bringing up two mons that just switch out (or in torns case win 1v1) really isn't a good reason to keep it where it is. Ton also fares much worse than a majority of mons in the tier than zone because it's just that frail. Magnezone can at least live hits so the two cancel out in a way and mag comes on top every time unless you're facing a Talonflame.
Edit: AV torn t can also just knock it off and render ton useless while barely taking like 50% from t bolt then just simply u turn out and regain a third of its hp back.
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C+ ---> C
I think bronzong should drop. It's pretty passive and after setting up SR it really doesn't do that much. Checking Landorus and Mega Diancie is definitely pretty nice but it gets worn down pretty fast and focus blast from Landorus does quite a lot of damage. Bronzong's passiveness makes it set up fodder for a lot of stuff in the tier, such as Sub CM Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Volcarona, Manaphy, Charizard X, etc. It can't even beat Mega Altaria 1v1 with toxic because gyro ball is only a 3HKO and it can be stalled out with roost. Being setup fodder for like more than half of A+, and beaten by 3 out of 5 of the S rank mons (keldeo, metagross, clefable) is pretty sucky for a defensive mon.
Bronzong's niche lies in checking stuff like Landorus, Garchomp, and fairies, but it often finds itself getting overloaded and the lack of reliable recovery makes it pretty easy to wear down. There are much better landorus and garchomp answers out there, and jirachi is usually the better choice for checking fairies. Yes, bronzong does check all of them at once but as I said earlier the lack of reliable recovery and it's passiveness really hurt it. Bronzong just really isn't on the same level as other C+ mons such as seismitoad.
Ok so let me go ahead an explain what else you outrun since you took the context and just assumed two mons only and clearly missed the premise as to what Magneton does. Alakazam, Weavile, Torn-T, Starmie, and Talonflame are things it outruns that Magnezone can't. The whole switching out debate is a two way streak because the same can be said for pressuring double switches so I don't see how it's actually a legitimate argument of just switching out. The speed tier is much more important than you're giving it a credit for with all these mentions of mons I just stated. Uh two hits from Talonflame, Life Orb Alakazam, and Weavile? Good luck with that. Magneton isn't suppose to used for the added power and bulk it's used for that higher speed tier to pressure these in the first place. Magnezones defensive utility and power difference is why it sits at a higher rank right now. You're not designed to be OHKOing stuff with Magneton you're designed to use the speed tier to your advantage to pressure certain elements of offense. It's fine in C+.
An immunity to Spikes, resistance to Stealth Rocks and immunity to Toxic and you say it is worn down pretty fast?
C+ ---> C
I think bronzong should drop. It's pretty passive and after setting up SR it really doesn't do that much. Checking Landorus and Mega Diancie is definitely pretty nice but it gets worn down pretty fast and focus blast from Landorus does quite a lot of damage. Bronzong's passiveness makes it set up fodder for a lot of stuff in the tier, such as Sub CM Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Volcarona, Manaphy, Charizard X, etc. It can't even beat Mega Altaria 1v1 with toxic because gyro ball is only a 3HKO and it can be stalled out with roost. Being setup fodder for like more than half of A+, and beaten by 3 out of 5 of the S rank mons (keldeo, metagross, clefable) is pretty sucky for a defensive mon.
Bronzong's niche lies in checking stuff like Landorus, Garchomp, and fairies, but it often finds itself getting overloaded and the lack of reliable recovery makes it pretty easy to wear down. There are much better landorus and garchomp answers out there, and jirachi is usually the better choice for checking fairies. Yes, bronzong does check all of them at once but as I said earlier the lack of reliable recovery and it's passiveness really hurt it. Bronzong just really isn't on the same level as other C+ mons such as seismitoad.
I don't see how it is easily overloaded by Mega Diancie, Garchomp etc. when Leftovers is enough to compensate Stealth Rock damage and a Dragon Tail or a Moonblast isn't going to hurt you at all. I can name 10 defensive pokemon that are setup fodder for half the tier but it doesn't change the fact that the kind of teams Bronzong fits on have enough answers to the most common setup sweepers. Bronzong loses momentum against pokemon like Scizor and Volcarona but the moment you switch in against Mega Gardevoir you can just use Hypnosis / Toxic to punish the incoming Manaphy, similar to what Alomomola or Amoonguss do with their free switches. Also how doesn't it beat Mega Altaria 1v1? DDD sets fail to 3HKO even at +6 and just get stalled out and offensive DD sets take 70% from a Gyro Ball the moment they higher their speed with Dragon Dance. The niche Bronzong performs is definitely on the same level as Magneton, Gastrodon and Thundurus-T, if not higher.
Could I bring back the Swellow nomination to the light? I have to get off the computer so I can't run calcs, but I think it has some notable advantages over t-flame and starraptor.
Yeah hold off on that, more than likely going to be a no for now.
alright, if anyone knows how cloyster came on to this ranking thread, it is because of me. i nominated this thing a long time back and alexwolf is the g, so he put it on this viability thread. cloyster was just that noob 'mon in bw where you see sash lead spam shell smash bullshit and if cloyster dies, your opponent clicks the fucking forfeit button like fucking piece of shit lololol closyter's main niche is to click shell smash late-game when its checks and counters are weakened by mega gardevoir in particular because it lures in jirachi, ferrothorn, and bulky psychics which cloyster will have problems with. otherwise, there are other teammates in which you can give credit for like mega heracross. with a set of shell smash / icicle spear / rock blast / razor shell @ life orb / lum berry, it can easily sweep late-game when these checks.counters are weakened. razor shell is 10x better than hydro pump. Snobalt i don't want you to attack me back with a quote because i will be sad :[ so i will just say you said steel types should handle cloyster, but this is not true as razor shell takes out stuff like jirachi, mega metagross, mega scizor (all of these when weakened by a good chunk), bisharp, heatran,... so i am not sure what this means and icicle spear hits ferrothorn and skarmory neutrally anyways :] life orb gives it the edge in power to completely destroy bulkier walls and the luxury of lum berry lets it beat thundurus, but also set-up two shell smashes on mega sableye allowing it to completely terrorize unawareclef/quagless stall. also, its stab moves have great coverage by hitting hippowdon and bulky garchomp which have all risen in usage and as a result give cloyster set up oppurtunities.
cloyster is there with hella flaws such as priority and actually getting the boost, but it is honestly a viable pokemon that i have used multiple times and fits the definition of d rank. however, i can see why the ranking team and others want it unranked, so i am neutral about the decision, especially considering what happened to mantine lol
cloyster is there with hella flaws such as priority and actually getting the boost, but it is honestly a viable pokemon that i have used multiple times and fits the definition of d rank. however, i can see why the ranking team and others want it unranked, so i am neutral about the decision, especially considering what happened to mantine lol
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Quick .02 on the Espeon / Smeargle ranking. I actually think they are fine where they currently are, probably a little underrated as far as effectiveness is concerned. Sure nobody likes GeoPass but I don't really think that matters all that much when you look at how actually effective it is. For how effective the whole thing is the battery pair should be ranked higher (see: the entire original BP chain having fairly generous rankings a while ago). C- is already enough of a hit and I'm pretty sure that's already influenced by how much people dislike the playstyle / team. You may not like something, but as long as it exists in a meta and is useable it should be represented by how effective it really is, and D ranking is understating how well GeoPass teams can do.
Lol don't worry; I wasn't gonna lash back at you anyway. In hindsight I maybe shoulda done the calcs for Razor Shell; also when I've seen Cloyster I have seen Hydro Pump noticeably more often than Razor Shell. I'm still not sure Cloyster should stay b/c it's so damn hard to set up with it in the first place but I don't have a strong opinion about it anymore.
I actually find it a shame to see this thing in C- and let me explain why. It finds itself being a good check to a large chunk of the tier and from the list down from S ranks to B ranks here is what it checks.
While it can only one time check some of these and outright lose to others keep in mind aggron can get off a thunder wave and cripple most for the rest of the match and stop sweeps,even things that beat it zards hate thunder waves. Plus being able to handle 3/5 of the S ranks is rather impressive alongside countering belly jet azumaril and other hard to wall stuff. It also has moveslots tailorable to you're teams needs as aside from rocks and heavy spam the other 2 slots give aggron some versatility to help cover your team's needs like choosing stone edge for luring talonflame and vvolcarona or earthquake to beat mega meta for example. It's power for a wall is also impressive. But I'm not going to deny it has flaws and sure as he'll won't acknowledge it as the best mega. It does use a mega and it loses to a handful of common stuff especially landours-I. No recovery for a wall mandates wish support. It also lacks spikes like skarm and ferrothorn. With that aside I nominate mega aggron for C but no higher then there as it has plenty of flaws to make me think of pushing it higher.
ORAS OU Ranking Tier List
(In alphabetical order)
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.
S Rank
Altaria (Mega):Hard check special sets and stone wall physical sets.
Clefable: it can't do much to you.
Keldeo: lol don't bother.
Landorus: Haha this roflsfomproflstomps you.
Metagross (Mega): hammer arm is it's best bet and that hardly 3hkos. Your earthquake outdamages hammer arm too
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.
A+ Rank
Azumarill:hates superpower from banded but you stone wall belly jet.
Bisharp: Aside from low kick it's not scratching aggron.
Charizard (Mega-X): don't go aganst this.
Diancie (Mega):one time check at best.
Garchomp:fatchomp can't hurt all that much and you avalanche it.
Gengar:see diancie.
Gliscor:This tickles you to death, avalanche kills it if it attacks.
Gyarados (Mega):Loses.
Heatran:Offensive ones win but defensive hates earthquake.
Landorus-T:swords dance wins but you can check other variants.
Lopunny (Mega):252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 141-168 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Be careful of adamant ones and power up punch variants.
Latios: Defog + 3 attacks loses but cm + draco overwhelms aggron. It hates t-wave though.
Manaphy: you lose
Sableye (Mega): see manaphy
Scizor (Mega):you wall it hard. Fire punch it.
Talonflame: You lose if it has wisp but you can beat other variants or if you have stone edge.
Thundurus: You lose to nasty plot but check mixed and 3 attacks plus utility ones.
Tornadus-T:one time check at best.
A Rank
Alakazam (Mega): can take a focus blast and cripple it. Heavy spam ohkos after rocks.
Charizard (Mega-Y): see landorus-i
Excadrill: You can't beat adamant sand rush ones but jolly ones you check
Ferrothorn: It can annoy you but if you have fire punch you win.
Gardevoir (Mega): Takes a focus blast and ohkos with heavy slam.
Hippowdon: lol.
Latias: same as latios but it struggles more.
Latias (Mega): stored power wins if it has alot of boosts. Reflect type beats you if no fire punch.
Manectric (Mega): it will overheat + volt switch to kill.
Rotom-W: you lose.
Slowbro:hard walls you.
Starmie: depends on the set. You can't switch in.
Tyranitar: you hard check it
Venusaur (Mega): doesn't threaten you
A- Rank
Aerodactyl (Mega): eats up any hit.
Celebi: you can beat most without earth power.
Gyarados: don't try.
Jirachi: lol you stone wall it.
Klefki: same here but it still supports its team.
Kyurem-B: lose to earth power.
Mamoswine:one time check.
Mew:will-o-wisps and stalls you out
Pinsir (Mega):you win even at +2
Politoed:you lose.
Raikou:volt switches away.
Serperior:really hard checks this
Skarmory:nope
Slowbro (Mega):see regular slowbro
Volcarona: you can win if it decides to set up and stone edge It.
Weavile: you check it rather hard.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.
B+ Rank
Breloom:sash ones aren't doing much with mach punch.
Chesnaught:it can stall you out.
Diggersby: beats you.
Dragalge: can't switch into specs.
Dragonite:you can beat this really easily
Gallade (Mega):depends if boosted or not.
Heracross (Mega):ha ha ha...
Hydreigon:one time check
Kabutops:you can beat this rather well
Kingdra:good luck
Magnezone: magnezone can't reliably trap it as most carry earthquake.
Suicune:same as slowbro
Swampert (Mega):lose
Tentacruel:relies on scald burns to win.
Terrakion:only takes 1 close combat.
Togekiss:you get flinched to death
Victini:you lose.
B Rank
Amoonguss:not threatening to aggron
Azelf:mostly used as a lead.
Beedrill (Mega):you hard wall it
Chansey: can't threaten you but it will stall you out.
Conkeldurr: win vs assault vest but die to sheer force ones
Crawdaunt:aggron checks I.
Cresselia: hardly threatening to aggron.
Empoleon: you can win if you have earthquake
Gothitelle:can't hurt you
Hawlucha:only threatens at +2
Quagsire: same deal with other bulky waters.
Omastar: try again
Sceptile (Mega):you win
Scizor:same deal as mega scissor.
Scolipede:can't hurt you whatsoever
Sharpedo (Mega):you can beat this well.
Slowking:same as slowbro
Zapdos:you lose as pressure drains stone edge pp.
B- Rank
Alakazam:same as mega zam
Alomomola:see suicune
Feraligatr:can't threaten you too much plus thunder wave cripples.
Garchomp (Mega):lol
Houndoom (Mega):lol
Lucario:depends if boosted or not
Mandibuzz: hardly touches you.
Medicham (Mega):lol
Reuniclus:depends if it has focus blast or shadow ball
Sylveon:you win
Tangrowth: can't hurt too much
Toxicroak:dependant on if boosted.
Tyranitar (Mega):checks it well
Tyrantrum:same as mega ttar
I didn't assume anything lol. Weavile and Zam are in the exact same boat: they aren't staying in, so I'm not sure what ur point of bringing them up is. And it's not like ton can even switch into them! Weav has knock off and Zam does a clean 54% with Psychic! (252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 133-156 (54.9 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) This means that ton literally can only revenge kill them, and at that point you accomplish abosolutely nothing aside from getting these two off the field. And if your opponent has a ground type, it's all for naught, quite literally, since ton cant even break any of them.
Starmie loses to zone too except ton can prevent a spin so I'll give you that, and I've already mentioned how ton beats Talonflame. I'm fully aware of what Magneton does and it's not C+ worthy. It really shouldn't have been that high in the first place but Greninja existed so you could get away with ranking mins high when they beat ninja in specific scenarios. But now that ninja is gone you really need to ask yourself, is beating Talonflame and forcing one or two mons out really worth losing the utility of actually checking fairies, being able to live hits, and overall being a much more effective trapper? When you really get down to it, no, it's not. Let's not forget the the number one reason why you'd even remotely consider using Magneton in the first place is because you need to trap Skarm or ferro for your mega Diancie or other fairy (Scizor easily kills with super even unboosted lmao so ur not even killing 51% of all scizors! 0 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 256-302 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Then you also need your trapper to have the even more specific job of forcing out 2-3 mons that otherwise trouble your team greatly. Then you also need it to be able to beat Talonflame. That's pretty damn specific. When looking at other C+ mons, none of them bar Raptor even come close to being that niche, so how in the hell is it "fine" in C+? Move it to C with all the other niche stuff. It's way more on par with stuff like Blissey and Cofagrigus than Seismitoad and Heracross.
Finished up a talk with ranking team. Here you guys and gals go on some updates we've confirmed.
Reasoning
Cofagrigus: D > C
"Fat ghosts are hard to come by and Cofagrigus cements itself as a staple of hazard stacking defensive builds due to its ability to hinder contact attackers such as Mega Lopunny, M-Altaria, Zard-X, Azumarill, and M-Metagross to name a handful. T-Spikes utility with a variety of support options to enhance the effectiveness of the builds associated with it enough to where its use isn’t as specific as those that fall under the C rank." - AM
Forretress: D > C-
"The defensive utility set is actually pretty effective in this meta. how it distinguishes itself from say skarmory and ferrothorn, is that it possess rapid spin to preserve your own hazards while being able to get rid of the opponents, possessing the coveted tspikes, and most importantly volt switch. volt switch is crucial in order to maintain momentum which something as passive as skarm or ferro isn't able to do as it maintains offensive pressure which is further added on by hazard damage. here are some replays that showcase it."
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-38810
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-45539
- ben gay
M-Glalie: D > Unranked "Niche mega. Can work but isn’t even a necessity in comparison to other ice types. Bye Bye M-Glalie. You won’t be missed clearly hehe." - AM
M-Camerupt: C > C- "Only excels in Trick Room, it's ass outside of that." - AM
Exploud: D > Unranked "See M-Camerupt" - AM
Ditto: C- > D "Anyone who knows what this thing does know how specific it is. It’s nothing outstanding, just lets you get clutch revenge kills on occassions." - AM
Cloyster: Stays in D "Well Cloyster should stay D because offensive Ice types are really threatening in this meta, albeit falling short to some bulky waters and a handful of priority. Shell Smash augments its less that spectacular offense and speed, being able to outspeed the likes of scarfkeldeo after 1 (should run jolly). There really is not much solid ice resists in this tier, so its coverage moves aren't really necessitated in its sweep. I myself have been using a life orb set on a hazard stack ho team that was able to sweep provided SR and at least 1 layer of spike was up. hydro pump being able to take care of steels and explosion to ohko the things you couldn't 1 shot such as slowbro. other than that, some priority moves may befall it but it does well with what it has. Sash kings rock natural gift rapid spin tspikes are also viable options to run on the mighty oyster." - ben gay
Diancie: D > Unranked "Too specific of a Trick Room setter in this meta. Talonflame answers on Trick Room aren’t exactly that difficult to come by, which is a point people bring up a lot although sort of miss the fact it's hard to use, to where Diancie is a necessity on Trick Room, a playstyle that’s already pretty specific as is." - AM
Gardevoir: D > Unranked "Real niche to justify the use of other better offensive fairies in the tier, even considering whatever niche people like to establish for it." - AM
Froslass: D > C-
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53857
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53728
"Solid utility for offensive teams. Replays to give an idea." - ben gay
Whimsicott: C- > C "Utility simply outside of any Geopass nonsense is enough for a raise. Stun Spore, Encore, Memento, U-Turn, Tailwind all supplemented by Prankster are all great for offensive teams focused on gaining momentum, which Whimsicott can be tailored to provide." - AM
Venusaur: Unranked > D "Niche but not that niche to justify not being placed in rankings. Works well on suncores with Char-Y + Venu. Speed tier under Sun and power from Life Orb can be brutal for some teams to contend with." - AM
Ludicolo: D > Unranked "Extremely specific for rain standards. Not so much not worth a slot more so there’s no definitive role that would exceed the capabilities of rain staples like Kingdra and Omastar." - AM
"make sure to tell ppl that they shouldn't put mons down if they are just theorymonning out their ass and haven't even used it. if they have used it they have used it incorrectly in which sum1 will correct them so that’s okay. am can u mention that ranking team will more seriously consider a nom if there is a replay in the realm of reason. its easier to interpret than arbitrary theorymon" - ben gay
Edit: Still cleaning up. Interest in Noivern and Doublade primarily and whatever else. Also -Clone- Magneton is staying at C+. I could try to explain it to you a million times but I know you won't budge. Unanimous decision by team.
Edit 2: Focus is lower rank stuff but more or less we have interest in Dugtrio, Kyurems, M-Blastoise, Emboar, Doublade, Noivern, and Chandelure's placement. Please back up with high level replays.
Code:
Cofagrigus: D > C
Forretress: D > C-
M-Glalie: D > Unranked
M-Camerupt: C > C-
Exploud: D > Unranked
Ditto: C- > D
Cloyster: Stays in D
Diancie: D > Unranked
Gardevoir: D > Unranked
Froslass: D > C-
Whimsicott: C- > C
Venusaur: Unranked > D
Ludicolo: D > UnrankedCofagrigus: D > C
"Fat ghosts are hard to come by and Cofagrigus cements itself as a staple of hazard stacking defensive builds due to its ability to hinder contact attackers such as Mega Lopunny, M-Altaria, Zard-X, Azumarill, and M-Metagross to name a handful. T-Spikes utility with a variety of support options to enhance the effectiveness of the builds associated with it enough to where its use isn’t as specific as those that fall under the C rank." - AM
Forretress: D > C-
"The defensive utility set is actually pretty effective in this meta. how it distinguishes itself from say skarmory and ferrothorn, is that it possess rapid spin to preserve your own hazards while being able to get rid of the opponents, possessing the coveted tspikes, and most importantly volt switch. volt switch is crucial in order to maintain momentum which something as passive as skarm or ferro isn't able to do as it maintains offensive pressure which is further added on by hazard damage. here are some replays that showcase it."
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-38810
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-45539
- ben gay
M-Glalie: D > Unranked "Niche mega. Can work but isn’t even a necessity in comparison to other ice types. Bye Bye M-Glalie. You won’t be missed clearly hehe." - AM
M-Camerupt: C > C- "Only excels in Trick Room, it's ass outside of that." - AM
Exploud: D > Unranked "See M-Camerupt" - AM
Ditto: C- > D "Anyone who knows what this thing does know how specific it is. It’s nothing outstanding, just lets you get clutch revenge kills on occassions." - AM
Cloyster: Stays in D "Well Cloyster should stay D because offensive Ice types are really threatening in this meta, albeit falling short to some bulky waters and a handful of priority. Shell Smash augments its less that spectacular offense and speed, being able to outspeed the likes of scarfkeldeo after 1 (should run jolly). There really is not much solid ice resists in this tier, so its coverage moves aren't really necessitated in its sweep. I myself have been using a life orb set on a hazard stack ho team that was able to sweep provided SR and at least 1 layer of spike was up. hydro pump being able to take care of steels and explosion to ohko the things you couldn't 1 shot such as slowbro. other than that, some priority moves may befall it but it does well with what it has. Sash kings rock natural gift rapid spin tspikes are also viable options to run on the mighty oyster." - ben gay
Diancie: D > Unranked "Too specific of a Trick Room setter in this meta. Talonflame answers on Trick Room aren’t exactly that difficult to come by, which is a point people bring up a lot although sort of miss the fact it's hard to use, to where Diancie is a necessity on Trick Room, a playstyle that’s already pretty specific as is." - AM
Gardevoir: D > Unranked "Real niche to justify the use of other better offensive fairies in the tier, even considering whatever niche people like to establish for it." - AM
Froslass: D > C-
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53857
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53728
"Solid utility for offensive teams. Replays to give an idea." - ben gay
Whimsicott: C- > C "Utility simply outside of any Geopass nonsense is enough for a raise. Stun Spore, Encore, Memento, U-Turn, Tailwind all supplemented by Prankster are all great for offensive teams focused on gaining momentum, which Whimsicott can be tailored to provide." - AM
Venusaur: Unranked > D "Niche but not that niche to justify not being placed in rankings. Works well on suncores with Char-Y + Venu. Speed tier under Sun and power from Life Orb can be brutal for some teams to contend with." - AM
Ludicolo: D > Unranked "Extremely specific for rain standards. Not so much not worth a slot more so there’s no definitive role that would exceed the capabilities of rain staples like Kingdra and Omastar." - AM
"make sure to tell ppl that they shouldn't put mons down if they are just theorymonning out their ass and haven't even used it. if they have used it they have used it incorrectly in which sum1 will correct them so that’s okay. am can u mention that ranking team will more seriously consider a nom if there is a replay in the realm of reason. its easier to interpret than arbitrary theorymon" - ben gay
Edit: Still cleaning up. Interest in Noivern and Doublade primarily and whatever else. Also -Clone- Magneton is staying at C+. I could try to explain it to you a million times but I know you won't budge. Unanimous decision by team.
Edit 2: Focus is lower rank stuff but more or less we have interest in Dugtrio, Kyurems, M-Blastoise, Emboar, Doublade, Noivern, and Chandelure's placement. Please back up with high level replays.
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Pangoro for C Rank:
I think Pangoro is slightly above the rest of his ranks aside from Mega-Aggron who might move up soon as it is kind of an hidden gem. Anyway, back to Pangoro, he's kind of the definition of a C Rank, he has a bunch of flaws, it's typing defensively isn't exactly the best, through it could be worse, it can serve as a soft check to anticipated Knock Offs from things such as Bisharp, which can be pretty nice. Its speed isn't exactly good either, if anything it's pretty eh, but it allows Pangoro at the very least to use Pangoro's signature move, Parting Shot, more effectively.
But Pangoro shines in other ways, mainly his insane coverage: Drain Punch/Hammer Arm/Superpower + Knock Off + Gunk Shot covers absolutely everything in the tier, guarranting Pangoro to do damages no matter what if he switches. Ice Punch is prety enjoyable as well for Landorus-T, or you could use its interesting move: Parting Shot. Parting Shot allows Pangoro to escape from potential bad switches, and allows for any kind of pokemon who needs to setup something to set it up more safely, it's a huge tool on TR Teams mainly, where Pangoro shows its brutality by being one of the best abusers of the Trick Room, but shows its utility in any kind of team with some set up sweepers, or an hazard team.
Definitly an enjoyable niche pokemon. :)
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Time to join the party after some time. Been a while since I last made/backed up, so let's get right down to business. (BTW, I don't know how to directly tag people in posts, so if anyone could tell me I'd greatly appreciate that.)
BACKING UP
Pangoro (C-) -> C | Yeah, I think Remilia explained pretty well why Pangoro should rise up. Its great coverage (hitting the entire tier neutrally) paired with a base 124 Attack stat is always dangerous to switch in on. It's got a pretty cool niche with Parting Shot, letting it deliver a clutch offense nerf to an opponent and then get a teammate in that can either set up or deal with the threat at hand. Its Fighting/Dark-type lets it absorb Knock Offs, something many Pokémon in OU appreciate. While it does still suffer from having a poor Speed stat and its bulk being average at best, meaning it's stopped pretty easily if something outpaces and can 2HKO/OHKO, Pangoro's niche is a good one overall and deserving of C.
Mega Garchomp (B-) -> B | It was either in this thread or the old one that pika pal and a few others covered Mega Garchomp excellently and nominated it to move up. I fully support that notion; if shit like Mega Sceptile is in B and Mega Swampert in B+, then Mega Garchomp's current rank is a crime. Mega Garchomp is a scary wallbreaker to face between its 170/120 offensive stats and its excellent 108/115/95 bulk. It's actually physically bulkier than Mega Swampert, only specially slightly frailer. Dragon/Ground is still a fantastic offensive typing and its STABs alone give this landshark enough coverage to work with while wallbreaking.
Mega Garchomp's stats and movepool give it a good degree of versatility as a wallbreaker, too; it can run mixed sets and Swords Dance variants, and its stat spread lets it choose between more Speed and bulk. Compared to its regular form and faster wallbreakers, Mega Garchomp is in a less crowded Speed tier, meaning it doesn't need to fully invest to do its job. It can adjust its EVs to whatever its team needs it to outpace, allowing it to dump the remainder into either offensive stat to make it a bigger threat on both fronts or, on physical sets, its HP to make it even bulkier. Of course, you can go max Speed, but Mega Garchomp appreciates all the power it can have and, due to its aforementioned Speed stat, can afford to go +Attack to hit absurdly hard. Add up Swords Dance to that and things get scary.
Now, as has been pointed out before, Mega Garchomp's Sand Force is just the icing on the cake. It doesn't explicitly need Sand Force to function well, but its Ability makes it a great wallbreaker on Sand teams to be paired with Excadrill, whom Mega Garchomp even has decent synergy with. Going on about the Ability, Sand Force basically gives this brute a Life Orb boost to its Ground-type STAB, as well as any Rock- and Steel-type moves; taking this in mind, as well as the fact that Dragon resistors and sponges are everywhere in OU right now, Mega Garchomp doesn't even need to run its Dragon-type STABs, when it can do the job with Swords Dance/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Fire Blast. Fire Blast is clutch for hitting Pokémon like Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Bronzong with, bopping them when they predict the Earthquake. Mega Garchomp's sheer usefulness on Sand teams is often overlooked, while it makes a fantastic asset to the playstyle. And again, a Mega Evolution is used for what it does best. If you use Mega Garchomp, you use it to wallbreak, not like a bulkier yet slower base Garchomp.
Of course, it's not a perfect Pokémon. Mega Garchomp's base 92 Speed means it'll get outpaced and be forced to tank hits more than it likes. Its weaknesses to Fairy and Ice are a major thorn in its side, mainly Fairy for how extremely common it is. Burns are a big problem for the shark as well, considering they nerf its precious Attack stat that it relies on to wallbreak. When I look at this monster's assets and virtues, however, I do consider it to be a potent Pokémon in its own right - definitely better than Mega Houndoom and even Mega Sceptile. It's not reliant on Sand to work, but complements the playstyle greatly regardless. IMO, Mega Garchomp should rise to B. I could say B+, but that's too much of a stretch, still. B is good enough.
OWN NOMINATIONS
Mega Sceptile (B) -> B- | Honestly, what is Mega Sceptile still doing in B? For the most part, Serperior does the work of a fast offensive Grass-type far better and can provide utility as well. Mega Sceptile is honestly not the strongest Pokémon around, it's kinda frail and has many weaknesses to common types that make using it more of a liability than anything else. I mean, it can work as a late-game cleaner, revenge killer or paralysis absorber, but there's just so much Mega Sceptile does that Serperior simply does better. I once again ask: what's Mega Sceptile still doing in B? Drop it to B-.
BACKING UP
Mega Garchomp's stats and movepool give it a good degree of versatility as a wallbreaker, too; it can run mixed sets and Swords Dance variants, and its stat spread lets it choose between more Speed and bulk. Compared to its regular form and faster wallbreakers, Mega Garchomp is in a less crowded Speed tier, meaning it doesn't need to fully invest to do its job. It can adjust its EVs to whatever its team needs it to outpace, allowing it to dump the remainder into either offensive stat to make it a bigger threat on both fronts or, on physical sets, its HP to make it even bulkier. Of course, you can go max Speed, but Mega Garchomp appreciates all the power it can have and, due to its aforementioned Speed stat, can afford to go +Attack to hit absurdly hard. Add up Swords Dance to that and things get scary.
Now, as has been pointed out before, Mega Garchomp's Sand Force is just the icing on the cake. It doesn't explicitly need Sand Force to function well, but its Ability makes it a great wallbreaker on Sand teams to be paired with Excadrill, whom Mega Garchomp even has decent synergy with. Going on about the Ability, Sand Force basically gives this brute a Life Orb boost to its Ground-type STAB, as well as any Rock- and Steel-type moves; taking this in mind, as well as the fact that Dragon resistors and sponges are everywhere in OU right now, Mega Garchomp doesn't even need to run its Dragon-type STABs, when it can do the job with Swords Dance/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Fire Blast. Fire Blast is clutch for hitting Pokémon like Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Bronzong with, bopping them when they predict the Earthquake. Mega Garchomp's sheer usefulness on Sand teams is often overlooked, while it makes a fantastic asset to the playstyle. And again, a Mega Evolution is used for what it does best. If you use Mega Garchomp, you use it to wallbreak, not like a bulkier yet slower base Garchomp.
Of course, it's not a perfect Pokémon. Mega Garchomp's base 92 Speed means it'll get outpaced and be forced to tank hits more than it likes. Its weaknesses to Fairy and Ice are a major thorn in its side, mainly Fairy for how extremely common it is. Burns are a big problem for the shark as well, considering they nerf its precious Attack stat that it relies on to wallbreak. When I look at this monster's assets and virtues, however, I do consider it to be a potent Pokémon in its own right - definitely better than Mega Houndoom and even Mega Sceptile. It's not reliant on Sand to work, but complements the playstyle greatly regardless. IMO, Mega Garchomp should rise to B. I could say B+, but that's too much of a stretch, still. B is good enough.
OWN NOMINATIONS
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Im going to Nominated Toxicroak for a drop from B- ALL the way down to C
There's just to reason to use this mon in ou, it has mid 80s speed and 83/65/65 bulk... its best set is the lo sweeper one with sd gunk and sucker but when a not stab sucker is your best chose (besides gunk shot but again slow af) whats the point in using it... gets outclassed in the ou metagame as a set up sweeper and everything else it does
Toxicroak for a drop from B- ALL the way down to CThere's just to reason to use this mon in ou, it has mid 80s speed and 83/65/65 bulk... its best set is the lo sweeper one with sd gunk and sucker but when a not stab sucker is your best chose (besides gunk shot but again slow af) whats the point in using it... gets outclassed in the ou metagame as a set up sweeper and everything else it does
Well a water immunity is actually pretty nice as it is one of the few keldeo checks that does not get worn down by scald burns. Being able to check lots of mono water attackers such as crocune and crobro is also pretty cool. Adamant LO Toxicroak at +2 actually hits insanely hard with gunk shot, and having personally used it a lot before, I can assure you that it does not belong in C.
Lol this one makes even less sense than Bronzong to C. Can you maybe provide replays to show why this thing is C rank worthy because it looks like you are just nominating this without playing with it. Toxicroak definitely struggles in a metagame with Garchomp, Hippowdon and Mega Scizor being common checks (2/3 are even killed by Ice Punch lol) but it also has some very cool niches. It is one of the few pokemon that can check both Tyranitar and Keldeo pretty well. It is one of the few full stops to BD Azumarill after it set up and it is a pretty nice revengekiller of Bisharp. A +2 Toxicroak can easily kill balance and offensive teams and even stall teams struggle with it if they lack Brave Bird Skarmory or Quagsire. A boosted Sucker Punch is ridiculously strong, OHKOing pokemon such as Tornadus-T after Stealth Rocks and even Slowbro (!!!) dies to a +2 Gunk Shot after rocks. Don't have much time to write more about this rn but here is a post from a few days ago explaining why this nom doesn't make any sense: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-metagame-discussion.3521201/page-68#post-6200439Im going to Nominated
There's just to reason to use this mon in ou, it has mid 80s speed and 83/65/65 bulk... its best set is the lo sweeper one with sd gunk and sucker but when a not stab sucker is your best chose (besides gunk shot but again slow af) whats the point in using it... gets outclassed in the ou metagame as a set up sweeper and everything else it does
Having also used Toxicroak extensively, I disagree completely. It has insane coverage and damage output to match, and the Water immunity is really useful. It puts in a lot of work against slower, bulkier teams which are all the rage right now and non-STAB Sucker still saves it from being revenged by Starmie or Mega Alakazam even if you haven't boosted, and at +2 it's very potent and can save you from much more. It's very powerful and an excellent Wallbreaker. It does not belong in C imo. It's just as viable as the likes of Tyrantrum, Feraligatr and Mega Medicham.Im going to Nominated
There's just to reason to use this mon in ou, it has mid 80s speed and 83/65/65 bulk... its best set is the lo sweeper one with sd gunk and sucker but when a not stab sucker is your best chose (besides gunk shot but again slow af) whats the point in using it... gets outclassed in the ou metagame as a set up sweeper and everything else it does
Edit: SketchUp ninja'd me and said it better anyway.
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I have used it and it does have a niche but not one that makes it a b rank mon its a c rank mon IMO it would have a nice defensive niche but its defensive stats are just awful and other mons check keldeo that are way more common in ou and can do OTHER things besides just have THAT niche, which is why i think its a c mon
Just looking at Keldeo only you see Toxicroak is one of the few pokemon that beat both Keldeo and the most common Pursuit Trappers (Bisharp and Tyranitar) 1v1. Other Keldeo checks like Lati@s, Mega Altaria (Adamant / Modest) and Dragalge either lose to Tyranitar or Bisharp 1v1 which is a huge disadvantage over Toxicroak because TTar and Bish are some of the most common partners to Keldeo.
You also sound like Toxicroak's only job is checking Keldeo and Azumarill. Toxicroak is an amazing wallbreaker or setup sweeper (depends whether you run Ice Punch or SD) with very few switchins on balanced teams. Not only does it have very limited switchins but many of them can be either lured in by Ice Punch (Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus) or are not the most difficult pokemon to switch into with some of Toxicroaks teammates (Bulky Scizor, Cresselia, Skarmory)
''IMO it would have a nice defensive niche but its defensive stats are just awful''
Yeah if you are trying to use Toxicroak because of its defensive stats I am not surprised you are nominating it to C rank. Its defensive niche is Dry Skin: a water immunity. It is not meant to wall anything, it is meant to switch into water type moves (or just prevent the opponent from spamming water type moves) which obviously leads to being a great Keldeo check/counter (depends on the set) because you also resist fighting.
Nominations: Bronzong to atleast B....zong beats so much in the current ou metagame while getting sr and only taking 6% on switchins. Zong easily beats megagross, mega alt, lando i without knock off, exca in sand, landot, megagarde, CLEFABLE, and basically every ground, psychic and fairy type...is that not enough for B
Hmmm... while I don't doubt that Bronzong is a very underrated Pokemon, I think we should start slowly and move it to B- if we are to move it at all. Yes, Bronzong's defensive typing alongside its bulk and Levitate allow it to act as a check to a lot of threatening Pokemon in today's metagame. Nonetheless, it has plenty of struggles as a defensive mon, namely its lack of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers. This means Bronzong is a lot easier to wallbreak than other stallmons. It's also pretty passive; though it can deal with Fairies thanks to Gyro Ball, it's still got poor offensive presence, leaving it setup bait to a wide variety of mons. Thus, a rise is reasonable, but moving it straight to B might be pushing it. Bronzong for B-.
Gonna put this in the OP as well. It's a viability of sorts to specific sets of a Pokemon and I wanted to do this originally but wasn't able to now that it's starting up and has a foundation already going for it might as well go with this. Please read the OP of the sets thread along with the comment I'm about to put shortly.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-sets-viability-rankings-v3.3537590/page-2
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-sets-viability-rankings-v3.3537590/page-2
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