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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)

Agreeing with all of this, though there are two things I'd like to note:
  • For Belly Drum Azu, I'd keep Adamant as the main slash, mainly because A. Defensive Mega Venu is no where near as common as it once was and B. I find a good chunk of Mega Venu's will Speed creep to Jolly Azu, though maybe that's just me. Though definitely give Jolly second slash for sure. (Though I did just notice that offensive Mega doesn't run enough Speed for Jolly Azu (92 Spe), maybe that should be added to the main set...?) (Another heads-up, Set Details for the Offensive Mega has 96 Spe EVs needed to outspeed Jolly Azu when it's only 92, as Jolly Azu hits 218 while 92 Spe Mega Venu hits 219)
  • Would anyone really be against having Sand Rush as the first set for Excadrill? Maybe it's just me, but it seems better than Scarf atm, even if it does require Sand support.
venu gives up too much bulk to outrun jolly azu, most don't or at least shouldn't be creeping enough for jolly azu. you're in the clear as far as outspeeding it goes. and offensive venu is becoming more common, it's definitely worth it that you can pop that. adamant is good tho for example +6 ajet ohkoes chomp, the slashes can really go either way.

oh and offensive would need 96 evs because hp fire forces a decrease in your speed iv, requiring one extra speed ev to compensate. same reason why it runs 20 and not 16 speed for max azu/mawile.
 
ok so we should definitely update a few things and i wanted some feedback.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/amoonguss.3495290/

there are a few things off here. first of all amoon really needs a spdef spread; this allows it to fully counter keldeo, aegislash, and non-hp flying thundurus, which are three pokemon that it is meant to counter.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 193-228 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 133-157 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 236-278 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 162-192 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 200-237 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 138-164 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

this special bulk is useful in certain other scenarios, such as being able to tank an ice beam from greninja with about 30-35% to spare and put it to sleep, and tanking hits from choice specs kingdra (54.1 - 63.8% from draco).

although this might not seem like that many pokemon, these are pokemon that its job is to counter, that it can't without specially defensive investment.

furthermore, the moveset should be changed to the following:

move 1: Spore
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Foul Play
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Clear Smog

with hidden power fire and stun spore in moves. this moveset accommodates for the fact that foul play is essentially mandatory for amoonguss, turning it from fodder for aegislash to one of its best counters, and making physical switch-ins as well as the lati twins/deo-s much less safe. the last slot is basically a choice of poison move. clear smog could be slashed first but it can go either way, dice has said he prefers sludge bomb so i just slashed it this way.
Wow, specially defensive isn't even a spread? I've only used it specially defensive for its ability to manhandle Keldeo. It certainly needs a set; I'd even put it first.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/azumarill.3495262/

first thing, a jolly nature needs to be slashed into belly drum if not made the first slash. it's commonly used on bd azu, allowing it to bypass its biggest counters, mega venusaur, if it's been weakened to about half. adamant has advantages such as allowing aqua jet to ko garchomp at +6 and making you stronger before a boost, but jolly should at the least be slashed in. superpower also probably shouldn't be slashed, it's ok if you need ferro bait but that's really about it, waterfall is very useful to pop skarm and for its obvious uses before a boost. also having the 100% accurate move is something that should not be underrated, you can easily lose to play rough misses and waterfall prevents this.

the assault vest set should be changed to an ev spread of 248 hp / 252 atk / 8 spdef. while i acknowledge wanting to take advantage of the assault vest and get lots of special bulk out of it, the fact of the matter is that azumarill is often used to tank certain physical threats, such as dragonite, mega charizard x, and mega gyarados, and it needs hp investment to do so effectively.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 221-260 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 221-260 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

av could also debatably be moved up to the second set, but all three azumarill sets are really good atm so it's a little shaky.
You're 100% right.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/clefable.3495107/

is anyone actually a fan of the tank set with modest and lo? you lose a lot of important physical bulk that makes clefable so good; it really doesn't seem worth it. i've already talked to spirit and he agrees.
I think you're right again.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cresselia.3495088/

the first defensive set really doesn't seem that good to me. sure it's bulky and it counters lando, but i really struggle to see the niche for it in a meta with defensive sponges that provide more utility and fare better against more relevant threats. the only legitimate niche i've seen for it is on tr which is /ok/ with tr / lunar dance / moonlight / filler. if anyone has actual experience with this type of cress then by all means comment, but otherwise i don't think it's worth having.
This one I totally disagree with. I'm currently testing the defensive set, and it's been amazing. It flawlessly beats Landorus-I, Latios, Latias, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Infernape, Garchomp, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Breloom after sleep clause, Mega Medicham, and Terrakion (even CB!) and can permanently cripple Dragonite, Charizard-X, Charizard-Y, Keldeo, and Pinsir for the rest of the team to deal with. It's been exceptional, and I think removing the set is a mistake. One thing I would change is making Thunder Wave the main slash; it's necessary to cripple every Pokemon in the second list.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/crobat.3495329/

can we get rid of this crap? it has 3 rejections and we collectively agreed to reject it, but it's still in the preliminary dex thing fsr ?_?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/excadrill.3498432/

move sand rush up to the second set, it's definitely better than vanilla air balloon mold breaker atm considering how prominent and effective sand offense is.

put jolly as the first slash for scarf, if not alone, it's really too important to outrun +1 zard x more than anything else.

air balloon slash or at the least set details mention for sand rush to be used with rapid spin. lo is ok with spin, the power is very useful but losing 10% to spin is not and generally keeping your hazard control alive/healthy is definitely good. it also lets it function as a soft check to opposing grounds and avoid spikes to spin which is nice. one of the biggest benefits of this is checking opposing sand rush exca.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/greninja.3495555/

get dark pulse off the set or at least to the third slash, and put hp fire as the first slash. the coverage from hp fire to hit ferro and mega scizor is extremely useful, vs dark pulse hitting deo-d, and getting twaved, and a stronger hit on aegislash which is already 2hkoed. hp grass should stay as the second slash.

minor thing is get the 4 atk evs off of the second set because they're not used for anything.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hippowdon.3504764/

specially defensive shouldn't be the main set. hippo should be ev'd to tank shadow balls from aegislash, and then the rest should be poured into physical bulk. to always tank two sballs after sr it needs 136 spdef evs, so an ev spread of 252 hp / 120 def / 136 spdef with an impish nature. it needs this defense for mega pinsir (otherwise it is ohkoed by +2 return), talonflame (otherwise it is 2hkoed by cb brave bird), mega charizard x (otherwise it has a 31.3% chance to be ohkoed by +1 flare blitz), life orb terrakion (only basically negligible 3.1% chance to be 2hkoed by cc after sr vs easily 2hkoed), switching into bisharp without losing half its hp, handling lo sand rush exca, switching into +2 mega scizor without losing half its hp to whirlwind it out, taking ~55% from +1 dnite outrage vs ~75%, actually avoiding a 2hko from scarf kyu-b's outrage with sr off the field...physical bulk is insanely useful for hippowdon, vs basically just being a better aegislash counter and handling thundurus both of which can be handled with teammates such as amoonguss (hippowdon handles hp flying thundurus just fine which is the biggest threat it poses to amoon, it just can't really tank lo hp ices).
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/infernape.3505752/

we collectively agreed in the qc pm to get rid of it, just putting this here for thoroughness.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kabutops.3506106/

is spin actually worth slashing? i mean kabutops really wants to take advantage of the rain turns to obliterate the opposition with its strong attacks, spin really isn't worth it when you can just use something like latias to defog if you're dying for hazard control on your rain team.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/keldeo.3498830/

first set: why is life orb slashed and why is hp flying slashed second? hp flying is used on most variants of keldeo, allowing it to bypass mega venu which is otherwise an enormous roadblock to it. furthermore latios, which is the main target of icy wind, can easily be taken out with common pursuit support, while mega venu is much more difficult to bypass. lo wears down keldeo really fast and loses power that is easily noticed vs threats like mega charizard x:

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 266-316 (74 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 306-361 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

it also loses a guaranteed ohko on most mega mawile and only does like 65-70% to ferrothorn with secret sword. these are just a few things, the loss in damage output is definitely to the point where life orb is not worth a slash.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kingdra.3498212/

specs is the best set, you get an enormous amount of damage output and moreover kingdra isn't worn down as fast. i can make a more detailed argument for this if anyone asks, i really don't think it's necessary though.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/krookodile.3495859/

can we please get rid of the offensive set? unless somebody really objects; krook has an ok niche as a defensive mon, but an offensive set just seems ehh considering krook is really too slow to take advantage of moxie. scarf has two lock-ins (knock off and eq) that can easily be taken advantage of and there's better ground scarfers, so i'll rule that out. offensive krook just doesn't seem very good, i mean i guess it has knock off but i'd really rather just use garchomp which is for the most part a better mon due to an all-important 102 speed tier, dragon stab, and other factors like the potential fire blast to threaten skarm and threatening versatility. there's also sand rush exca, which doesn't have moxie but instead the speed under sand to actually sweep.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus.3495101/

just a quick thing, sludge wave on a 4 atks set? you have much more valuable options: knock off and cm if you can actually afford not to run sr. i really can't think of a scenario where i'd run earth power / focus blast / psychic / sludge wave, at that point i would be running knock off because i actually have room for it so i can break chansey and the latis, unlike sludge wave. sludge wave should be used as an alternative over psychic or w/e; you have better options for the last slot.

rp has definitely been used effectively, for example iirc valentine or someone won an ost match with it. perhaps it's worth considering for a main set, i'd like feedback on this.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-t.3502810/

lefties should probably be the only item for defensive lando-t. the recovery is just way too important for it to stay healthy/alive; it is its only available source of recovery, the residual from rocky helmet is really not worth it.

scarf ev spread was meant for double dance, should shift the spread down there and make the set max atk max speed with jolly / adamant as slashed (jolly is best because outrunning +1 char x is really really important as it is with scarf exca. maybe rock slide is worth throwing in because missing stone edge is ass although there is a certain power loss that is especially noticed vs dnite.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/latias.3499615/

this is kind of minor but it's pretty important that sashloom is mentioned as a teammate, as latias is one of its best teammates getting rid of the hazards it hates and restoring its focus sash with healing wish.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/latios.3495435/

first set could be updated a tad...latios should basically always be using defog. roost should be moved up to the third slot probably slashed inbetween tbolt and eq, hp fighting dropped into moves.

is scarf latios really worth keeping? i've literally never seen it used effectively this gen, it loses all of its utility in defogging and any hit-taking utility it could gain with roost or ability to switch moves for coverage, for a revenge killer that is pursuit bait and not worth using over things like scarfchomp, exca, and terrakion. any thoughts?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mamoswine.3495112/

i would rate icicle spear as the best option. sniping sashloom and hitting dnite through multiscale is just really useful, and it still does what it needs to aside from that. endeavor for sash is sorta gimmicky and losing an actual ice stab blows, i'd run icicle spear because you can counterlead sashloom alongside a jolly nature.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/manaphy.3495526/

minor quick thing: cm set is missing 4 evs which should go in defense.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mandibuzz.3495150/

non-defog mandi is just bad, it's not worth it and i don't think i've ever seen a non-defog mandibuzz used at any level of play. defog / roost / foul play should be mandatory slashes, then some combination of taunt / knock off / toxic in the last slot.
All very true
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mawile.3495151/

fire fang is worth including on the main set, subpunch could probably just be moved out into another set altogether as it does play different to an extent. fire fang hits: mega scizor, skarmory (though knock off does pop it), ferrothorn, and opposing mawiles. it's probably worth being the second slash. after knock off and before iron head.

idk what on earth that defensive set is but it should definitely go...not really much to explain here.
Thank you! I've always been a big proponent of SubPunch Mawile.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/roserade.3501340/

not a good mon ?_? seriously though, roserade has some issues. spikes really aren't that great in the first place because of all the defog and rapid spin outside of a few niche cases, and roserade really isn't one of them. i mean you're looking at a spikes stacker for offensive teams, just use deo-d because you get sr too which is really important and something that's actually reliably getting multiple layers, unlike roserade which suffers from a meta that is really hostile to it.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rotom-w.3495103/

choice scarf rotom-w is complete and utter ass and needs to go. it's also pretty important to mention sand rush exca somewhere because rotom-w is kinda one of the thing's best counters.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scolipede.3495158/

the first set is all kinds of weird, the only sets i'd have is the offensive set found here merged in as the first set and then the bp set.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/skarmory.3495190/

this set is definitely off. it should be more like:

move 1: Roost
move 2: Defog
move 3: Whirlwind / Taunt
move 4: some combination of sr / counter / toxic / maybe brave bird

first of all defog is definitely mandatory on skarm, virtually every skarm ever runs defog and there really isn't much reason not to, it's one of the biggest parts of skarm's utility. then there's counter which has been used to definitive success on recent stall teams, for stuff like mawile and stopping pinsir right in its tracks if it tries to chunk you with +2 return on the ww or w/e, in general stopping anything that's trying to chunk at skarm and put it away for good, unlike what happens with ww where skarm has to find a chance to recover back up and the threat remains persistent whilst the foe can just put endless pressure on skarm while it does absolutely nothing. counter pairs with taunt to prevent further setup. other moves in the last slot are pretty self-explanatory, main things are including taunt + counter and putting defog as mandatory.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/snorlax.3496230/

why does this have an analysis again? i mean i guess it has offensive presence but it's really easy to wear down, you might as well just use chansey which doesn't has offensive presence but has actual recovery and utility. they're different but this really doesn't seem worth using at all.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/talonflame.3495293/

sharp beak should go die, it needs the power from cb way too badly to even consider running it. also can we get rid of the sd set please? it's aggressively mediocre, you're not really bypassing its typical counters and it's missing a lot of power pre-boost that it so sorely needs. i mean i guess it's powerful after a boost but it has no bulk to set up and can't perform its main role in revenge killing at as good of a capacity. needs to go.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terrakion.3495125/

this is slightly minor but sr is really the best set, it should definitely go first. sash / lo as item slashes in that order, and sd should go down to moves, it's just not something that can sweep because that would mean it has to set up sr, its sash is now broken, and then somehow get an sd and be easily revenge killed...just not a very good option. second set should prolly be lo all-out attacking followed by scarf followed by cb.

also meh x-scissor on the scarf set? it has exactly 10 more bp vs stone edge vs deo-s which is supposed to be its purpose translating to this:

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 178-210 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-226 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is this actually worth giving up an accurate rock stab to revenge kill stuff with? i think not.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyranitar.3495248/

crunch is really not worth slashing for mega dd, the accuracy is nice but stone edge is simply too necessary to break skarm, azu, gyara, clef, kyu-b, weakened venu, mandi can nab an opportunity to toxic if it has that taking ~half from +1 ice punch, and doing way more to rotom-w.

smooth rock should be the first item slash for defensive ttar, as it's really not used on non sand-based teams (its main role is as a resilient sand setter for exca). also sr should be alone in its own slot and fire blast should be slashed elsewhere.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/venusaur.3505005/

first of all sleep powder needs to get the hell off the offensive set, the recovery is way too important to even consider that.

something else i'd like to bring up is potentially switching the sets in order. as char x stall has become more dominant, venu has become a better mon for balanced/bulky offense as opposed to stall, where in general the power that the offensive set has to offer is very appreciated as opposed to bulk. stuff like this:

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 144-169 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

is what i'm talking about. two good posts by cbb relevant to this topic:
All true.

So basically all that I disagree about is that defensive Cress needs to stay.

Also lol @ Skuntank.
 
venu gives up too much bulk to outrun jolly azu, most don't or at least shouldn't be creeping enough for jolly azu. you're in the clear as far as outspeeding it goes. and offensive venu is becoming more common, it's definitely worth it that you can pop that. adamant is good tho for example +6 ajet ohkoes chomp, the slashes can really go either way.

oh and offensive would need 96 evs because hp fire forces a decrease in your speed iv, requiring one extra speed ev to compensate. same reason why it runs 20 and not 16 speed for max azu/mawile.

Ahh, thank you. I still believe Adamant would be the best main slash for the reason you've stated, and, like I've previously stated, the large decline in Defensive Mega Venusaur.

Also, is there any reason why the 96 Spe spread isn't the main spread on Offensive MegaSaur, considering Jolly seems to be the main nature for a lot of Belly Drum Azumarill's now adays? I've found the bulk, while helpful, is not necessary.
 
I'll just comment on a few of those mons on the list:

- I wrote Mamoswine and have been meaning to bring up an update on the Endeavor set. I agree with moving it to moves or w/e. Also agree with Icicle Spear > Icicle Crash.

- Also I definitely agree with Knock Off being the primary slash on 4 attacks Landorus. It's way too good right now. If Sludge Wave stay as a slash I think it should be behind SR too though, being able to OHKO Bold Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, and non-vest Azumarill is nice I guess but not amazing. Rock Polish is more difficult; tbh I think it's possibly worthy of a set just because most offensive teams rely on revenge killing lando with naturally faster things Keldeo or HP Ice Thundurus (excluding priority). Being immune to Twave is pretty underrated. Of course without CM or Knock Off it does struggle against stall, and priority sucks, but it can do work against offense. I'm a bit on the fence though as I haven't used it myself, only played against it a couple of times.
 
I'm not QC but I guess I'll provide input on specific mons anyways.

I haven't really seen the Tank Clefable set used well, and the idea of cutting into Clefable's physical bulk doesn't seem so good to me when most Dragons are physical and it just leaves Clefable suspectible to Scizor. I won't say much else on the matter though.

I like Sand Rush Excadrill and I personally support moving it up. It's better than Rapid Spin imo because it performs much better against offensive teams and can still get off a fast spin which is nice. In general with LO+3 Attacks it sweeps pretty well and in general packs more of a punch than Air Balloon.

I personally think Dark Pulse still deserves some slashing on Greninja, as I kinda like using Dark Pulse as a reliable way to hit Aegislash as well as hitting Deoxys-D pretty hard. It's kinda a niche option for Greninja but it still has a couple of niche uses. That might just be my personal opinion though.

I haven't used RP Landorus that much but I recall it being pretty good last gen, and I've also been pulverized by the set being used against me, RP makes Landorus quite effective against offense which is really nice, being able to outspeed things like Greninja, Keldeo, etc. that you couldn't otherwise do is pretty neat and Landorus still packs a punch and is immune to T-Wave (ahem Thundurus), so I'd agree with it getting a set.

I have never seen Scarf Latios used well with things like Aegislash, Bisharp, Scizor, and Tyranitar everywhere, so it should probably be removed.

I would support SubPunch Mawile getting its own set since it's somewhat different from the SD set, SubPunch is useful to lure in typical SD Mawile counters and surprise them with a Focus Punch (ie Heatran, Ferrothorn), while still packing good power with Play Rough and Sucker Punch. It's a nice lure but SD Mawile is a better wincon.

I tested the first Scolipede set on the analysis a while ago, and from what I've tested it's supposed to be this odd utility Pokemon that sets up hazards and proceeds to Baton Pass boosts to a teammate to get them going. Idk it does have a couple of merits like hitting Deo-D hard and setting hazards but it could stay or not.

SD Talonflame has always been complete garbage for me whenever I've used it. I know setting up is nice and all but I've found that it's too frail to actually get a boost and it's weak to SR and has a lot of weaknesses so it's dead weight a lot of the time. It's also larger bait for Tyranitar since it can't cripple it with Will-O-Wisp nor can it actually U-turn to switch and weaken it, so meh.

Roserade and Snorlax are beyond irrelevant in OU and I wouldn't be opposed to removing their analyses, idk about Infernape although it is pretty outclassed now so I guess it could be removed.

Just some thoughts.
 
Jukain
  • Definitely slash Sludge Bomb first on Amoonguss. Clear Smog is generally unreliable in my opinion, it can annoy your opponent when they're trying to set up, but most things that might try to set up on Amoonguss can usually smash it unboosted anyway. Plus the extra power from Sludge Bomb is seriously needed.
  • Agreeing with both Waterfall and Jolly nature on Azumarill—both should be slashed first. As for putting AV over CB, I'm kind of torn as well. Both are extremely good sets. If I had to choose, though, I would put AV before CB.
  • I'm personally a fan of Tank Clefable—it really screws up your opponent when they're expecting the typical defensive or CM sets. While other lure sets are usually disregarded as gimmicks, Tank Clefable actually works well enough that it should be kept in my opinion. Definitely should be the last set in the analysis, though.
  • Cress isn't worth it IMO, for all of the reasons stated before. TR is alright but I'd honestly rather use something with far more offensive capability.
  • Agreeing with Crobat, Greninja, and Excadrill
  • Agreeing with Hippowdon as well, although I'm confused—are we making a separate set or merging physical and special to create an all-around defensive set? IMO the second option sounds a lot better, if it's worth anything.
  • Agreeing with Infernape
  • As for Kabutops, I don't think Spin should be slashed, but a moves mention should be okay. A waste of a moveslot most of the time—Rain teams aren't very hazard weak, the only hazard that's somewhat annoying is Sticky Web but even then using a turn to spin with Kabutops is usually counterproductive.
  • While agree with making HP Flying the first slash on Keldeo, I disagree with de-slashing Life Orb. When playing against stall it's extremely helpful to be able to switch moves—being locked into something lets most defensive teams easily handle you with a bit of prediction, while Life Orb means you actually get to punch holes into stuff. Yeah the recoil sucks and specs is better against offensive teams but Life Orb is definitely still a valid option.
  • Agreeing with both Kingdra and Krookodile—definitely keep defensive Krook.
  • For Landorus I recommend everyone check out this excellent post made by CBB.
  • Agreeing with Landorus-T and Latias.
  • For Latios, I don't think Defog is 100% necessary—there are times when I'd rather forego the hazard removal and just stick with Roost + 3 attacks, which is still extremely effective. Scarf Latios isn't very good though, IMO, outclassed by Deo-S as a revenge killer and really easy to take advantage of its locked-in moves.
  • Agreeing with Mamoswine through to Roserade.
  • As for Rotom-W, I'm on the fence about scarf. It's nothing amazing but it's still somewhat effective.
  • The first set could probably use a revamping (those slashes lol) but it's still somewhat effective enough that it can get an analysis I think, though definitely not the first one listed.
  • As for Skarmory—I'm a major fan of both WW and Taunt, and I'd be open to slashing Counter (though I don't think it's the best option by any stretch), but I'm not a huge fan of Brave Bird (should be deslashed imo but was shot down by other members previously). We can open up a full discussion on this, it should probably get another revamping.
  • Agreeing with Skuntank through Terrakion.
  • For T-tar I'm not really sure I agree with a smooth rock slash first. Yeah, the extra sand turns are nice for offensive teams, but it's still a great option to run T-tar on bulkier defensive teams, and in those cases you really don't want to be losing out on recovery. Not only that but I've always preferred using more offensive sets when it comes to putting T-tar on an offensive sand-based team.
  • Venusaur I agree with.
Also, an apology—I'm sorry for not noticing a lot of this stuff myself. I haven't been keeping up with analyses as much as I used to, but I'll definitely put more effort in to these revamps.
 
Terrakion is kind of my baby, so...

this is slightly minor but sr is really the best set, it should definitely go first. sash / lo as item slashes in that order, and sd should go down to moves, it's just not something that can sweep because that would mean it has to set up sr, its sash is now broken, and then somehow get an sd and be easily revenge killed...just not a very good option. second set should prolly be lo all-out attacking followed by scarf followed by cb.

I'm okay with this. Most of these are things that I've brought up a while back either in the thread or on IRC, so I'm fine with it. My only thing is that I personally prefer Life Orb > Focus Sash on the Stealth Rock set, but that's just me.

also meh x-scissor on the scarf set? it has exactly 10 more bp vs stone edge vs deo-s which is supposed to be its purpose translating to this:

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 178-210 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-226 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is this actually worth giving up an accurate rock stab to revenge kill stuff with? i think not.

I actually think X-Scissor still deserves a serious mention. After a switch into Stealth Rock and one turn of Life Orb recoil, Deoxys-S is guaranteed to die to X-Scissor, so Terrakion will be able to easily revenge kill it immediately after its first kill. Stone Edge can't boast the same, especially considering its lower accuracy. Seeing as how good LO Deoxys-S is, I think this is pretty important. It's also kinda useful for other fast Psychics, namely Latios (X-Scissor has a small chance to KO after Stealth Rock + Life Orb recoil while Stone Edge does not). Also, keep in mind that Rock Slide still isn't perfectly accurate. It's better than Stone Edge, but there's still an annoying 10% chance to miss. It's also kinda weak with no boosting item. For instance:

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 300-354 (100.6 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 224-266 (75.1 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If the opponent's Charizard X is still healthy, you need Stone Edge anyway to safely revenge kill it. You get a similar damage output against Dragonite as well (with Multiscale broken, of course). Essentially, Rock Slide is great when the opponent is in kill range and you want to get the best odds of landing the hit, but there are still times where you'll have Rock Slide and will need to use Stone Edge anyway for the 33% extra power.

Move X-Scissor to the second slash if you want, but I still think it's perfectly slash-worthy.
 
I have been using Cresselia a ton, and the Trick Room set is absolutely phenomenal! It is a great supporting Pokemon and saves me in a pinch, it has enough bulk to live Bisharp's Knock Off, which can be absolutely vital. Cresselia's Lunar Dance is amazing for restoring the health of a teammate in a tight spot, such as burned Mega Mawile or an Exploud. DualScreens is also extremely beneficial, as Cresselia is very hard to take down behind them, as will its teammates. Cresselia is a key component to Trick Room teams for this reason, Trick Room, DualScreens, and Lunar Dance, it's a superb wall and supporter that has been the backnome of my team.
 
Also, is there any reason why the 96 Spe spread isn't the main spread on Offensive MegaSaur, considering Jolly seems to be the main nature for a lot of Belly Drum Azumarill's now adays? I've found the bulk, while helpful, is not necessary.
Eh, from what I've seen Jolly Azumarill isn't all that common, and even then, +6 Play Rough almost never OHKOs after Stealth Rock damage. Of course, Venusaur is easier to wear down than most Pokemon and obviously a lot easier to get into range for Jolly Play Rough than Adamant Aqua Jet, but this is just for one Pokemon. Rotom-W can't hurt you and if they Volt Switch out something else is taking heavy damage. You can't OHKO it anyway so if it goes for Will-O-Wisp you're getting burned either way. Jolly Mawile is quite rare as well and with the reduced bulk you actually do a lot worse against it, so yeah, Azumarill is pretty much the only reason you're using these extra 76 EVs. And when I look at that and think about all the situations where the extra 19 HP matter, I'd rather have the extra bulk instead of Speed EVs for an uncommon threat, especially looking and how common Assault Vest > Drum is becoming as well. It's obviously an option, but I personally would never choose it over the extra speed unless I'm that weak to Belly Drum Azumarill. And if I am then they can probably wear it down enough for Aqua Jet to kill anyway. From what I've seen the extra HP are actually very necessary when dealing with powerful attackers such as Mega Mawile and Choice Specs Keldeo (especially once you get burned), so I'd rather keep those over the added speed.
 
- Amoonguss: I'm good with the changes you have there. You could mention a 248 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef Bold spread, if you are weak to BD Azu. The spread lets you take a +6 Play Rough while still being able to check Keldeo/Thundy but to a lesser extent.

- Clefable: That set is okay. I've really only seen it a couple of times and it wasn't bad. I guess we can keep it.

- Crobat: This has an analysis????

- Infernape: We can remove this.

- Kabutop: Remove spin

- Landorus: Make Knock Off the first slash. RP should get a set. EVs: 68 Atk / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd Rash Nature with EP / Psychic / Knock Off / RP.

- Latios: I dont really like Scarf that much and I've hardly really seen it.

- Skarmory: Counter should be slashed over SR imo. I really dont like Defog and SR on the same set, I find it really dumb.

- Skuntank: Needs to go...

- Snorlax: Probably needs to go as well...

If I didnt mention one of the mons you listed, I probably agree with what you said or dont have any experience with it.
 
Yeah, I was planning on bringing up revamps once we finished all of the analyses, but now's good too.

Amoonguss: Yeah, Foul Play definitely needs to be by itself, Sludge Bomb is better than Clear Smog, special defensive spread is important.

Azumarill: I still prefer using Adamant and would want to keep that first, but Jolly should be slashed. Superpower seems like more of a moves mention because it's only used to pop one Pokemon, Waterfall is pretty useful. I didn't even realize that the spread for Assault Vest was SpD investment instead of HP, I've always used HP. I also think that Assault Vest is better than CB and should be the second set. I'd also like SubPunch to get a main set, I've been using it recently and it's nice. Focus Punch blasts Ferrothorn, Substitute eases prediction, I quite like it.

Clefable: No objections, that set's always been more surprise value than anything. It was kinda popular a month or two ago, but it's declined since.

Cresselia: This thing is actually pretty cool, it can threaten to paralyze a lot of things, Ice Beam will at least make things that are 4x weak to it kill, and it has a good amount of utility. Obviously Latios / Latias have their considerable advantages, such as being able to wall Charizard Y, but I think Cresselia's unique enough as a defensive Pokemon to do work. Trick Room, on the other hand, in my opinion, is too niche to get representation in the analyses and should be covered by an article instead, similar to sun. Dual Screens is also one of the best at its job. The moves on the defensive set need to be changed, though, Thunder Wave is super important and lol HP Fire.

Crobat: rip

Excadrill: Sand Rush for the first set, it's definitely the most prominent right now and more threatening than Choice Scarf. Jolly alone on Scarf, I'm not a fan of getting outrun by +1 Adamant Zard X. Air Balloon is also good on Sand Rush, although I would keep Life Orb first, Air Balloon can be pretty effective too.

Greninja: Agreed, HP Fire > Dark Pulse.

Hippowdon: Okay, so we combine the two sets to the mixed spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD, but a mention should still be made of both fully physical and fully specially defensive. Special checks Charizard Y pretty well, physical bulk is just very useful miscellaneously.

Infernape: While I don't expect it to, wait a bit to see if it goes BL before rejecting it. If it stays UU, rip rape ape

Kabutops: Personally, I've never bothered with Rapid Spin, Swords Dance makes it such a threat and isn't that hard to set up.

Keldeo: Life Orb is probably just set details, although switching moves shouldn't be discounted too much.

Kingdra: Yeah, Specs is better than Life Orb.

Krookodile: Offensive Krookodile is probably more ass than Crobat.

Landorus: Gee, I wonder who pushed for Sludge Wave before. Main set Earth Power | Focus Blast | Psychic | Knock Off / Stealth Rock. Sludge Wave, Rock Slide, U-turn, etc. in moves. I think that the Calm Mind set should be Calm Mind | Earth Power | Focus Blast | Sludge Wave / Psychic. Focus Blast is mandatory, unlike on the current set imo. Rock Polish still feels like OO, it can be effective, but it's more of surprise sweep power than anything.

Landorus-T: Yeah, fix the EVs. I've never liked Rocky Helmet, it's probably more of set details.

Latias: Sure

Latios: I disagree that Defog is mandatory, I've used 3 attack + Roost pretty often, it's nice on stuff like DeoSharp where you don't want to Defog, and other times when you have Defog elsewhere and you just want Latios for its typing and shit. Checking Landorus and Charizard Y consistently and everything is really good, I think the 4th Slot should be Defog / Roost still, with a mention that running both moves is also okay. Another thing that I've been using is Psychic instead of Psyshock. Psyshock doesn't break Chansey anyway, but Psychic 2HKOes Clefable for example. I honestly don't see too much of a use for Psyshock on Life Orb Latios, I'd change it to Psychic. I also don't agree with Earthquake getting a slash, it's only for Heatran, I like HP Fighting more, that actually hits multiple things (okay, 2) and helps Latios not die. So, set should be Draco Meteor | Psychic (maybe this isn't necessary either?) | Thunderbolt / HP Fighting | Defog / Roost. Scarf is pretty mediocre, I don't mind it leaving.

Mamoswine: I don't have much experience with it recently, but making Icicle Spear first seems fine, still slash Icicle Crash, it's nice for having a consistent way to break shit like Hippowdon. I've never really been a fan of the sash set period, but I imagine that anything that would knock Mamo down to its sash would get hit hard by a STAB and not need to be endeavored. Endeavor is still worth a mention.

Manaphy: Of course

Mandibuzz: Roost | Defog | Knock Off / Foul Play | Taunt / Whirlwind with Toxic in moves imo.

Mawile: Okay, so main set should be SD | Play Rough | Sucker Punch | Knock Off / Fire Fang / Iron Head imo. Then there should be SubPunch with Substitute | Play Rough | Sucker Punch | Focus Punch and a mention made that you can run a 4th coverage move and forego Substitute because dry punching on switches isn't as bad as it sounds. Kill the defensive set obviously.

Omastar: Go for it

Roserade: I rejected this already, but then user GatoDelFuego decided to GP check it anyway instead of something else.

Rotom-W: I haven't seen scarf in a long time, rip

Scolipede: After the BP nerf, I think that there should be two sets. The offensive LO set as is, and a dedicated QuickPass set, with Megahorn | Protect | Swords Dance | Baton Pass. Spikes is pretty goofy.

Skarmory: Okay, physically defensive should be Roost | Defog | Whirlwind / Taunt | Stealth Rock / Counter I think. Toxic and Brave Bird in set details. Specially Defensive can be what TFL said, please kill Spikes.

Skuntank: lol

Snorlax: Eh, it walls stuff and has offensive presence? Nah, it's pretty easy to deal with, rip

Talonflame: Sharp Beak to set details. If I was going to use a set up Talonflame, I'd use the Bulk Up set, I haven't seen people use SD in a long time, although it could still be worth it.

Terrakion: I trust Gibbs completely on this.

Tyranitar: Dragon Dance / Stone Edge / Ice Punch / Earthquake sounds good. And Smooth Rock should be first, but keep Leftovers slashed.

Venusaur: Offensive set is really good, that should be first, obviously it needs Synthesis, if anything mention Sleep Powder with HP Fire.
 
amoonguss:

move 1: Spore
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Foul Play
move 4: Clear Smog / Sludge Bomb

i think that clear smog is too good to give up on. i've lost a few times because i've lacked clear smog and never found sludge bomb to be that good nor spammable. one scenario was vs venomoth -- i couldn't stop his boosting w/ my mushroom so i lost RIP. foul play nails the stuff sludge bomb hits for the most part in dragonite / lati@s, and there are times when getting a regular poison on a poke is very bad for you. anyway, regarding the spread, it should definitely be specially defensive. personally, i use 248 hp / 44 def / 216 spdef calm. the defense ev's are complete arbitrary; i just allocated them there due to the fact that i already hit the spdef benchmark for an extra stat.

azumarill:

jolly deserves a slash after adamant if anything, but i disagree with you that it should be the main slash. the prominence of offensively inclined mega venusaurs is just too big of a hurdle IMO. you said that they have to take out too much bulk to run enough spe for azumarill, but a spread that i use simply takes out of special attack and still runs max HP, and this is growing increasingly popular. i'd make assault vest set 2 as well, however.

clefable:

phew this needs some work. i've never seen an unaware cm clefable sweep EVER and i don't think it's a good set. no idea why it's first. magic guard cm is definitely the top set, and it should be this:


Magic Guard + Calm Mind
########
name: Magic Guard + Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Moonblast
move 3: Soft-Boiled
move 4: Stored Power / Flamethrower
ability: Magic Guard
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
nature: Bold

stored power is just the best option IMO. for starters, it can actually break stall by bypassing unaware mons and venusaur which is huge. setting up vs roar-less heatran is greattt and it makes a fantastic lure in that aspect. flamethrower hits skarm / scizor / aegi though, so it's still a great alternative and deserves a slash. i don't think LO is that good on clefable. it can set up with CM and doesn't particular need the immediate power on this set. longetiveity with lefties is key.


Support
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Moonblast
move 2: Wish
move 3: Protect
move 4: Heal Bell / Thunder Wave
ability: Unaware
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Bold

this set for 2nd. wish is hella underated and pretty cool. this is by far the best unaware set. i removed stealth rock since it just doesn't fit well on this set. throw it in set options or w/e. i'd put CM unaware in the set options of this; i don't think it's worth a set.

the tank set can remain the 3rd set. i like it still. there should be a forth set added though:

Stealth Rock
########
name: Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Moonblast
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Soft Boiled
ability: Magic Guard
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Bold

maybe someone can kind some ev's that let it get some attacking benchmark, but this set is pretty cool. it beats both skarmory and lati@s so it makes a good set

cresselia:

tr seems ok i guess? screens too maybe?? defensive set is just bad..

crobat:

hell no

excadrill:

imo sand rush should be the first set. it's probably the most common set and definitely the most destructive. air balloon needs to be slashed on it before life orb 4sure, and rapid spin needs to be slashed after rock slide. maybe mention some speed benchmarks you can hit so you can retain some bulk? i'd put stealth rock before iron head on the defensive set, but that's just me. and ya, jolly for the only scarf nature :X

greninja:

why remove dark pulse?? one of greninja's biggest niches is checking aegislash, and that lets you do so while still nailing rotom and having a cool flinch chance. these sets seem fine, but i'd add substitute in the set comments of the first set since greninja forces a lot of switches so you can do some fun shenanigans with it.

hippowdon:

some mixed spread should be the set, ya. i usually use 252 hp / 72 def / 184 spdef with impish to live +2 ccs and tank aegi well, but idrc what the spread is.

kabutops:

fine as is. mention it checking bird-spam teams somewhere for offensive rain builds

keldeo:

life orb's still cool lol. don't remove it. just put choice specs first. being able to switch moves is greattttttt. being locked into hp flying can have such huge ramifications. you just mosted some arbitrary calcs -- calcs are decieving since you can also skew them to favor your argument. but ya, hp flying first. icy wind has utility still, so it can be slashed second. i'd make sleep talk a mention in set comments because it can help vs tanking breloom / smeargle spores, albeit riskily.

kingdra:

ya, specs is the best set. i'd just slash life orb after it. atm it's two sets. also it's kinda funky atm. same with ev's. they can't even outspeed scarf lati@s / keldeo


Rain Wallbreaker
########
name: Rain Wallbreaker
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Scald / Surf
move 4: Dragon Pulse / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Specs
evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
nature: Modest

228 should be the speed benchmark (scarf lati@s) for all the sets unless someone has a problem with it.

krookodile:

first set seems barely viable. second one is laughable.

landorus:

: remove sludge wave entirely from the first the first set, and slash rock slide (lol i know) as third move. focus blast should be the first move on CM too since being walled by skarm is gay. also, RP / knock off / epower / psychic is a legit set too and should be added. rp is really underrated and makes landorus a great matchup against offense.

landorus-t:

what jukain mentioned seems fine. sets aren't really bad at all compared to other analyses

latias:

why should sash loom be mentioned as a teammate Jukain o_o i find they overlap in terms of checking rotom-w while teambuilding and it's slightly redundant, even on offense. i wouldn't recommend redundancy in an analysis.

latios:

honestly, the sets are fine. slashing shadow ball after psyshock on the first set would be nice though. you 2hko aegi and shit. it's nice.

mandibuzz:

just move the toxic / knock off slashes to the 3rd move and cut out whirlwind

mawile:

remove resttalk, add fire fang, add a subpunch set, mention pain split instead of swords dance. also mention it on the subpunch set instead of sub. you gain more survivability, especially if mawile if your sole steel, and it can do some cool shit like weaken aegislash as they king's shield.

omastar:

redo and mkes speces only set ya

roserade:

reject

rotom-w:

make spdef a spread too for greninja and shit, remove scarf, mention both types of excadrills (mold breaker owns it, but it counters sand rush)

scolipede:

only use offensive set plz,,, mention swords dance instead of protect on the offensive set too and mention baton pass to pass speed boosts

skarmory:

only use a physdef spread plz

move 1: Roost
move 2: Defog
move 3: Whirlwind / Taunt
move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock / Counter

should be the move order imo. slash rocky helmet and mention to use it if you're using stealth rock as you can't touch pinsir otherwise without hazards.

skuntank / snorlax:

reject

talonflame:

sharp beak is fine lol. i agree with literally every set on there.

terrakion:

remove cb, shit sucks with aegislash around if you mispredict. just use life orb. sr set first, slash iron head on the scarf set first instead of x-scissor so you don't have to use a stone edge vs weakened clefable or whatever. and it can flinch!

tyranitar:

slash fire blast with earthquake. remove cb; if you want a dark-type pursuit trapper, use bisharp since you can actually beat aegislash. i'd keep lefties slashed first over smooth rock -- not every ttar team needs an excadrill.

venusaur:

ya no to sleep powder. slash leech seed after giga drain on offensive. it can do some cool shit like weaken chansey / heatran much better and force switches. offensive first
 
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personally, i use 248 hp / 44 def / 216 spdef calm.

I use a very similar spread myself (enough SpD for the last jump point, rest in Def), but if you change it to this spread, definitely go with 252 HP / 40 Def > 248 HP / 44 Def. Dropping 4 HP EVs may reduce Stealth Rock damage by one point, but it also reduces Leftovers and Regenerator recovery by a point as well. Both are very valuable and will easily make up for the extra point in passive damage.
 
got spirit to update clef

cresselia basically needs an entirely new analysis with sets as tr and maaaaaybe dual screens, that's up for reservation.

i'm gonna write up an rp lando set because we need that.

someone needs to write up a subpunch set for mawile, that's up for reservation.

omastar is up for reservation.

rotom-w needs a spdef set, that's up for reservation.
 
got spirit to update clef

cresselia basically needs an entirely new analysis with sets as tr and maaaaaybe dual screens, that's up for reservation.

i'm gonna write up an rp lando set because we need that.

someone needs to write up a subpunch set for mawile, that's up for reservation.

omastar is up for reservation.

rotom-w needs a spdef set, that's up for reservation.

I'm down to write RP Lando if you would rather not do it (I know you have a lot of QC stuff on your plate atm). Also, SDef spread is already mentioned in Rotom-W's set details and I don't think it's a significant enough change for its own set, but I guess it's up to you guys.

EDIT: Also free to write Sub Punch Mawile if that's still needed (not sure how up-to-date the OP is).
 
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When doing minor changes for revamps, do you still need to make a new thread or can you just have a C&C mod move it back to this subforum?

Also once BP is kill I got dibs on revamping Espeon
 
When doing minor changes for revamps, do you still need to make a new thread or can you just have a C&C mod move it back to this subforum?

Also once BP is kill I got dibs on revamping Espeon

I would start a new thread. SDS indicated previously that we (as a forum) should be a little more liberal in creating threads, particularly when it comes to addressing revamping and/or quality issues in an analysis that may require further discussion.
 
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