Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[some hero]

It probably has been said but i really like how Hydreigon pretty much laughs at entry hazards altogether being immune to spikes and the web while only taking neutral damage from rocks. This is a huge advantage over Zapdos and even Mega Scizor(my favorite defog user). It's also why i find Defog Flygon really interesting. This just happens to have better bulk, coverage and attacking stats. It can switch freely into hazards and from there getting rid of them, none of the commonly used Defiant users can switch into its attacks. With that niche and his ability to hit any pokemon commonly used extremely hard, i do think it will have a place in the game. It's a Defog user who doesn't care about hazards, has some openings to switch in and hit very hard once out.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Sorry, I just really hate prankster, so I'll be bashing it later, but I'm posting from an airport.

I'm probably voting for hydreigon, because offensive defoggers are awesome, and their dual support/offensive viability makes them fun great to discuss

 

[Red Cat]

I guess there isn't really much to say about this slate. If you want a good hazard remover, vote for Hydreigon. If you want a really bulky physical wall, vote for Aromatisse. If you want the best annoyer in the game, vote for Gourgeist. If you want a Pokemon that doesn't do anything useful, vote for Sceptile.

 

[-Flygon-]

Well, based on the discussion of Gourgeist the first time, I expect a lot of arguments. Aromatisse would be bulky as fuck, which would definitely be useful, defog hydreigon is the same as defog Flygon, imo, just more adapted to the OU environment. Jellicent could be useful with an amazing Electric immunity, and Sceptile... Not useful unless it were to gain some physical dragon STAB for an SD set or something. All excellent suggestions, but I currently am fond of either Aromatisse or Jellicent.

 

[skies]

Well, based on the discussion of Gourgeist the first time, I expect a lot of arguments. Aromatisse would be bulky as fuck, which would definitely be useful, defog hydreigon is the same as defog Flygon, imo, just more adapted to the OU environment. Jellicent could be useful with an amazing Electric immunity, and Sceptile... Not useful unless it were to gain some physical dragon STAB for an SD set or something. All excellent suggestions, but I currently am fond of either Aromatisse or Jellicent.

It has Dragon Claw :/ still shit tho imo.

 

[-Flygon-]

It has Dragon Claw :/ still shit tho imo.

Whoops. :/ Anyway, yeah it's kinda shitty. If it had Draco, I'd be more open-minded.

 

[Siiilver]

Grass/Dragon isn't a very great type... sure it gives you a lot of resistances, but gives you 6 weaknesses, out of which one is x4 effective.

As I mentioned earlier, hydreigon + defog is a nice addition to have, but isn't something completely metagame-changing anyways.

For jellicent, I'm not really a fan of it having volt absorb... moreover, it hardly makes sense.

Fur coat Aromatisse is a really nice addition. Now they're gonna be running everywhere xD (as well as become the best TR setup poke)

Prankster gourgeist isn't bad either, it has a pretty decent stall movepool, as well as nice bulk. I might actually vote for this one, or the latter.

 

[escarlata]

Prankster Gourgeist is still scary as fuck, and I'm not fond of the idea of making its smaller formes useless. Aromatisse is certainly fantastic with Fur Coat. The only reason I didn't vote for it the first time was that I forgot it was no longer immune to Taunt and other stuff. Hydreigon becomes the best defogger in the game but it is harder to guarantee a defog compared to like latias. Jellicent getting Volt Absorb is better than it looks for shutting down quite the number of top tier electrics; though the dark and ghost weaknesses are unfortunate, it still looks like it can do a good job for its given role. Sceptile is still...useless, noivern or garchomp can do all of its role better.

 

[alexwolf]

Technically it should, as all Dragon-type Pokemon learn it.

For the tenth time, Grass / Dragon Sceptile wouldn't get Draco Meteor.

 

[Siiilver]

Prankster Gourgeist is still scary as fuck, and I'm not fond of the idea of making its smaller formes useless.

Its smaller forms had hardly any use to start with. =P

Its smaller forms wouldn't actually be USELESS, if you'd like some extra speed in exchange for some bulk/attack. I can perfectly see gourgeist big size being used over gourgeist super.

 

[escarlata]

Its smaller forms had hardly any use to start with. =P

Its smaller forms wouldn't actually be USELESS, if you'd like some extra speed in exchange for some bulk/attack. I can perfectly see gourgeist big size being used over gourgeist super.

Gourgeist-XL and S are in the same viability tier because it is a superior sub-seeder and spinblocker, and also for being the one of the fastest defensive WoW user in general. L had a bit of use over XL because it outspeeds Scizor with no EV, while having higher bulk than XL with EV invested to outspeed Scizor. So A is the only one that is actually useless.

With Prankster, XL outclasses S in all its roles, and there is no longer any need to use L to outspeed Scizor when it has priority WoW, so basically Prankster makes any niche of the smaller formes null.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Whoops. :/ Anyway, yeah it's kinda shitty. If it had Draco, I'd be more open-minded.

Technically it should, as all Dragon-type Pokemon learn it.

4th Generation he gets Dragon Pulse by TM :) So he does get a usable Dragon STAB

 

[-Flygon-]

For the tenth time, Grass / Dragon Sceptile wouldn't get Draco Meteor.

I said IF it got Draco it'd be good. :P I know you already said it wouldn't, which means it's still shit.

 

[Siiilver]

TheZokeShipper - It wouldn't be so great even IF it got draco meteor.

 

[alexwolf]

What is the reason behind this, every dragon except for mega evos which weren't dragon types before get it.

Dragon Sceptile isn't worth discussing otherwise since its STAB moves lack in power.

The reason is that each theorymon we discuss is supposed to get only one added element, no exceptions.

Enough about Draco Meteor on Sceptile guys, move on to discussing things that can actually happen, for example one of the five slated theorymons.

 

[Siiilver]

All I can say is, its gonna be pretty hard to vote this time, considering 2 of the suggestions are really good ones. I don't see why anyone would dislike fur coat aromatisse, and you can say the same about prankster gourgeist too. The SubSeed + Will o Wisp is a lovely combo :3

I'm not too fond of volt absorb jellicent though. I normally tend to not like new abilities/moves which don't exactly fit the pokemon's design or flavor text, tbh.

 

[-Flygon-]

All I can say is, its gonna be pretty hard to vote this time, considering 2 of the suggestions are really good ones. I don't see why anyone would dislike fur coat aromatisse, and you can say the same about prankster gourgeist too. The SubSeed + Will o Wisp is a lovely combo :3

I'm not too fond of volt absorb jellicent though. I normally tend to not like new abilities/moves which don't exactly fit the pokemon's design or flavor text, tbh.

The argument for Volt Absorb was that jellyfish sting, or something like that, but I know where you're coming from. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but it'd have an easy switching and a useful immunity.

 

[Siiilver]

The argument for Volt Absorb was that jellyfish sting, or something like that, but I know where you're coming from. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but it'd have an easy switching and a useful immunity.

Jellyfish use poison to sting, not electricity. Still doesn't make sense, lol. And sure it'd be useful, but making sense is the main thing..

 

[acestriker19]

I'm gonna jump on here with basically the same arguements I made against Aromatisse and Gourgeist before.

Prankster Gourgeist feels both overpowered, kinda uncompetitive and just annoying play against sub seed + destiny bond pretty much guarantees at least a 1.5 mons to one Gourgeist trade in any situation as Geist can pretty much ignore status. There is no opportunity cost to not running Geist as most set up sweepers cannot sweep through priority destiny bond or will-o-wisp. Does anyone know anything good prankster Gourgeist would add to the metagame.

Fur coat Aromatisse is interesting as there aren't any physically defensive fairies but would take away from the balance of the meta. Set-up sweepers like d-nite and garchomp have to sacrifice important moveslots just to deal with Aromatisse. Aromatisse can use any physical attacker without a SE move as wish / aromatherapy fodder. Aromatisse would shift the meta by damaging the viability of lots of set-up sweepers and slowing down the meta by basically being a physically defensive version of Chansey.

Overall these two effect the meta too much for me to say if they would good or bad as a metagame with these two would be drastically different from the current meta.

I'm probs gonna vote for defog hydreigon as hazard control that beats deosharp HO which diversifies the tier in a positive way.

 

[escarlata]

All I can say is, its gonna be pretty hard to vote this time, considering 2 of the suggestions are really good ones. I don't see why anyone would dislike fur coat aromatisse, and you can say the same about prankster gourgeist too. The SubSeed + Will o Wisp is a lovely combo :3

Fur Coat Aromatisse and Prankster Gourgeist are definitely amazing, but being amazing isn't always appealing. The problem is that Fur Coat and Prankster are generally abilities that are splashable on just about everything that fits the conditions of the ability and will make them good. It's like how giving Fairy to almost everything makes them better. For less splashable abilities it may be nice if something useless becomes much more usable by gaining an only mid tier ability, but when we start slapping top tier abilities on random stuff to make them good, it becomes dull and unappealing to quite the number of people.

Obviously Aromatisse and Gourgeist will be pretty damn useful if they get implemented. Aromatisse is still fine because Fur Coat doesn't break it; it is basically just a Chansey with its defenses swapped. But Prankster Gourgeist is really pushing it. Prankster SubSeed isn't too bad, Prankster WoW isn't bad either, even Prankster SubSeed + WoW isn't unbearable, but Prankster SubSeed + WoW + Destiny Bond just becomes the universal solution to everything. When something becomes that good, it might be too much.

Jellyfish use poison to sting, not electricity. Still doesn't make sense, lol. And sure it'd be useful, but making sense is the main thing..

Jellyfishes are bioluminescent. Lanturn is based on the angler fish which is bioluminescent. Lanturn has Volt Absorb. Making sense, there you go.

 

[Red Cat]

Fur coat Aromatisse is interesting as there aren't any physically defensive fairies but would take away from the balance of the meta. Set-up sweepers like d-nite and garchomp have to sacrifice important moveslots just to deal with Aromatisse. Aromatisse can use any physical attacker without a SE move as wish / aromatherapy fodder. Aromatisse would shift the meta by damaging the viability of lots of set-up sweepers and slowing down the meta by basically being a physically defensive version of Chansey.

Fur Coat Aromatisse does not cause the meta to become unbalanced. There are already more than enough physical setup sweepers in OU and not enough viable physical walls to take them all on. It has already been discussed that there still are many offensive threats which can power through Aromatisse, so suggesting that Aromatisse and Chansey are going to form the next Gen II SkarmBliss combo is nonsense.

Defog Hydreigon helps offensive teams more than balanced and stall which tilts the scales even more in favor of offense, so I don't think it really diversifies the tier.

 

[alexwolf]

Fur Coat Aromatisse does not cause the meta to become unbalanced. There are already more than enough physical setup sweepers in OU and not enough viable physical walls to take them all on. It has already been discussed that there still are many offensive threats which can power through Aromatisse, so suggesting that Aromatisse and Chansey are going to form the next Gen II SkarmBliss combo is nonsense.

Defog Hydreigon helps offensive teams more than balanced and stall which tilts the scales even more in favor of offense, so I don't think it really diversifies the tier.

Actually, the opposite is true Red Cat. Defog Hydreigon helps balance more than offense. Hydreigon is impossible to wall for offensive teams outside of Azumarill, which usually runs the BD set on such teams and doesn't want to waste its late-game sweeping potential to check Hydreigon. On the other hand, both balance and stall can handle Hydreigon just fine, with Pokemon such as Sylveon, Clefable, and Chansey. Furthermore, Defog Hydreigon checks one of the most prominent offensive playstyles, DeoSharp HO, and takes advantage of nearly all the slow-ish Pokemon that offensive teams use, such as Bisharp, Aegislash, Landorus-T, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Mawile, Excadrill, Dragonite, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn, with the only notable exception being Azumarill. Finally, the playstyle that utilizes heavy hazard support most often is Deo-D/S offense, and Hydreigon finds plenty of chances to get rid of those hazards, helping a lot to combat such teams, while balanced and stall teams that use only Stealth Rock don't really care much about an added Defog user that can easly be countered.

And Aromatisse is far from unbeatable when so many great physical attackers can effortlesdsly beat it, such as Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, SD Aegislash, Excadrill, and Mega Gyarados.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I wasn't around for the first round of Hydreigon discussion-- but this is a really interesting one. On one hand, it's raw survivability stats are... strange. 98 Speed is trolled slow (though 100 base Speed is less relevant than ever before), while 92 / 90 / 90 are decent but not amazing. I guess 92 / 90 / 90 would be acceptable base stats if you a really amazing defensive type like Zapdos, where your unique set of resistances make you a rare full-stop to some really unique threats. In my opinion, Hydreigon has too many common weaknesses-- Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Bug, and Fighting are all pretty big liabilities that add up to being hit SE (or at least for neutral STAB) by almost every major attacker in OU.

On the other hand, it has some really nice resistances-- best of which, the coveted Ghost and Dark ones. The latter of which, adds up to probably the most incredible thing about Hydreigon: It'd be the ONLY Defogger that beats a Bisharp switch-in. Survive the Sucker Punch and SMASH it with Focus Blast / Superpower. Then there's it's great anti-hazard typing/ability to consider, and it's impressive offensive power and healing.

But there's my concern-- it's of course got great BST, but does it have enough to be EV'd to hit hard enough while also being bulky? I feel 92 / 90 / 90 won't take hits well enough to cover those weaknesses without near full investment, which would leave its offensive ability fairly unimpressive.

Overall, I'm not really sold on it (as in would be dying to try this) but just having a defogger in the meta that says FU to Bisharp would be amazing. There's a lot that makes this one interesting, so it'll probably get my vote. IMO, even with Defog Hydreigon's going to struggle to find a team slot, but there's enough interest here to make it a really good theorymon (not Tough Claws Drapion good, but at least more-interesting-than-dry-skin-escavalier good).

 

[some hero]

I wasn't around for the first round of Hydreigon discussion-- but this is a really interesting one. On one hand, it's raw survivability stats are... strange. 98 Speed is trolled slow (though 100 base Speed is less relevant than ever before), while 92 / 90 / 90 are decent but not amazing. I guess 92 / 90 / 90 would be acceptable base stats if you a really amazing defensive type like Zapdos, where your unique set of resistances make you a rare full-stop to some really unique threats. In my opinion, Hydreigon has too many common weaknesses-- Dragon, Ice, Fairy, Bug, and Fighting are all pretty big liabilities that add up to being hit SE (or at least for neutral STAB) by almost every major attacker in OU.

On the other hand, it has some really nice resistances-- best of which, the coveted Ghost and Dark ones. The latter of which, adds up to probably the most incredible thing about Hydreigon: It'd be the ONLY Defogger that beats a Bisharp switch-in. Survive the Sucker Punch and SMASH it with Focus Blast / Superpower. Then there's it's great anti-hazard typing/ability to consider, and it's impressive offensive power and healing.

But there's my concern-- it's of course got great BST, but does it have enough to be EV'd to hit hard enough while also being bulky? I feel 92 / 90 / 90 won't take hits well enough to cover those weaknesses without near full investment, which would leave its offensive ability fairly unimpressive.

Overall, I'm not really sold on it (as in would be dying to try this) but just having a defogger in the meta that says FU to Bisharp would be amazing. There's a lot that makes this one interesting, so it'll probably get my vote. IMO, even with Defog Hydreigon's going to struggle to find a team slot, but there's enough interest here to make it a really good theorymon (not Tough Claws Drapion good, but at least more-interesting-than-dry-skin-escavalier good).

The reason why this one is my favorites is because it takes very little from entry hazards(advantage over Zapdos and MegaScizor), hits like a truck backed up with complete unpredictability(advantage over Zapdos and Skarmory) and doesn't waste my Mega slot(advantage over Mega Scizor). I think there is enough here for Hydreigon to thrive, specifically in bulky offense. It's typing plus ability are unique, giving it many opportunities to switch in and hurt something or keep momentum with U-Turn. Something like 224 HP/ 252 SP Atk/ 32 Spe would be pretty bulky and hit very hard. I am being a little bias though because this is the pokemon i have been dreaming of, a bulky Defog user with a lot of resistances, hazard immunity, good offensive presence that doesn't waste my mega slot. To be honest his biggest turn off is the fact he isn't immune to Toxic.


His weaknesses are also very trivial. Nobody uses Dragon and Bug as coverage. Focus Miss is the only popular coverage fighting move and it is obvious as fuck who carries it(the users can't even switch in). Fairy as coverage mostly overlaps with Focus Miss, or at least the same type of users. And i'd call it a very mediocre coverage move. And Ice is also mostly stuck on Water types. If you avoid the faster pokemon with these STABs, these weaknesses aren't that bad really. Nobody is spamming Ice, Bug or Fairy type attacks. And the Dragon weakness is irrelevant because you're most likely going to be OHKO by those moves anyway if you aren't immune or resist them. Right now, being weak to Dark(and Flying to a lesser extent... and rock but that has been true since gen 4) is instantly crippling. Fairy, Bug, Fighting, Ice and Dragon don't keep me up at night.

 

[Chou Toshio]

some hero
To be fair:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Aegislash
-Fighting

Charizard (Mega-X)
-Dragon

Deoxys-D

Deoxys-S
-Fighting
-Ice

Landorus
-Fighting
-Ice

Thundurus
-Fighting
-Ice

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

A+ Rank

Azumarill
-Fairy
-Fighting
-Ice

Bisharp
-STAB Steel
(Brick Break very rare but viable)

Charizard (Mega-Y)
-Fighting
-Dragon

Clefable
-Fairy

Excadrill
-STAB Ground (hits through Levitate)
-Bug? (anyone run X-Scissor?)

Garchomp
-Dragon

Greninja
-Bug
-Ice

Gyarados (Mega)
-Ice

Keldeo
-Ice

Mawile (Mega)
-Fairy

Pinsir (Mega)
-STAB FLYING HOLY SHIT
-People use Close Combat?

Scizor (Mega)
-Bug
-Fighting

Talonflame
-Bug
-STAB Flying still hurts

Tyranitar (Mega)
-Fighting?
-Ice?
-STAB Rock hurts anyway
A Rank

Dragonite
-Dragon
-Fighting

Ferrothorn

Gengar
-Fighting

Heatran

Hippowdon

Kyurem-B
-Ice
-Dragon

Landorus-T
-Bug

Latios
-Dragon

Terrakion
-Fighting

Tyranitar
-Fighting?
-Ice?
-STAB Rock anyway

Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Breloom
-Fighting
Chansey
-T-Wave + S-Toss

Latias
-Dragon

Mamoswine
-Ice

Manaphy
-Ice

Mandibuzz

Rotom-W

Skarmory
-STAB Flying does some damage

Zapdos
-Ice?

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B+ Rank

Conkeldurr
-Fighting
Diggersby
-STAB Normal hurts

Garchomp (Mega)
-Dragon

Gardevoir (Mega)
-Fairy

Gliscor
-Bug

Gyarados
-STAB Flying hurts

Kabutops
-STAB Rock hurts

Manectric (Mega)
-Ice

Medicham (Mega)
-Fighting
-Ice

Politoed
-Ice

Quagsire
-Ice

Raikou
-Fighting
-Ice

Scizor
-Bug
-Fighting

Scolipede
-Bug

Slowbro
-Ice

B Rank

Amoonguss
-Spore
Chesnaught
-Fighting

Gothitelle
-Fighting
Heracross (Mega)
-Fighting

Kingdra
-Dragon

Lucario
-Fighting

Mew
-Fighting

Suicune
-Ice?

Sylveon
-Fairy

Tornadus-T
-Fighting
-Bug

B- Rank

Absol (Mega)
-Fighting
-Fairy
Aerodactyl (Mega)
STAB Rock hurts

Alakazam (Mega)
-Fighting

Crawdaunt
-Fighting

Rhyperior
-STAB ROCK
-Bug

Staraptor
-STAB FLYING
-Fighting

Thundurus-T
-Fighting
-Ice

Victini
-Fighting

Volcarona
-Bug

Conclusion: As I said, the vast majority of mons in the meta (minus a few A- threats I guess-- that chunk of 4 of 'em at the bottom that can't touch Hydreigon! lol) have some form of super effective coverage on Hydreigon, or at least a powerful STAB to use against it. You're right that often the mentioned attacks are not SPAM'd though, and Hydreigon can grab several switch-ins.

The question is if your switch is too predictable, and whether you want to use Defog with something that can be severely hurt by so many metagame pokemon.